Shoplifting, Larceny, Robbery, Theft Detained when innocent

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garygary

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Dear Sir:

I am a male, 17 years old. Recently I was subject to being detained for shoplifting when I was innocent and I would like your opinion about it.

WHAT HAPPENED

I was shopping at a large retail store that sells everything from food to television sets. After paying for my items at a checkstand I proceeded to the exit. An alarm sounded as I went through the first exit door. I looked around, but no employee seemed to be around so I proceeded out the second door.

I was overtaken in the parking lot by a uniformed store security guard who asked me to stop. She told me to remain calm and asked me to keep my hands in plain sight. She then explained that she had responded to the exit alarm and asked to look into my bag to check my receipt. I felt that I had nothing to hide so I agreed. To my great surprise she found an item which was not listed on my receipt, one of two CD's I bought. I explained that this must have been a mistake by the checker or that something was wrong with the register and I offered to pay for it. She told me that she would have to investigate further and asked me to accompany her back to the security area where "we can talk about this further." By this time I was getting scared and I did not want to go with her. We argued about this for a minute or two, not in a loud way, but with me saying that this was unnecessary, I could pay for the CD or give it back, and her saying I would have to accompany her back to the security area where a decision as to what to do would be made. I even offered to pay her cash on the spot for the CD which was less than $20. At that point she stated that she was not going to argue with me any longer and she was going to escort me back to the security area. She took me by the arm, above the elbow, grasping my hand with her other hand and kind of turning my hand around and back on itself. She asked me to please come along with her quietly. I can't say that the way that she held me hurt, but I felt that it would if I resisted. I went with her without resisting.

She took me back inside the store, down a hall and into a private office and sat me down on a stool. She then called someone on the phone and a male employee came in. She had me get up again while he did a "pat down", which she said was "for my safety and your safety." She then asked me to produce identification and I handed over my wallet. By this time I was very frightened. I wanted to call my mother on my cell phone and get her advice, but the guard said I could not do that now. I was already upset and shaking like a leaf. Not being allowed to call my mother was too much for me and I protested at this. The security guard told me to calm down but I couldn't help starting to cry. At that point she told me that "for my safety and your safety" I would have to be restrained. She then proceeded to handcuff my hands behind my back and again sat me down on the stool, telling me to "take some deep breaths and relax". That was very difficult to do under the circumstances but it did help me regain some control, although I kept blinking back tears.

The male employee said that he had something else he had to take care of and asked the guard if she needed him to stay. She said that would not be necessary and he left. She then proceeded to do her investigation. She made a list of everything in the bag, took a photocopy of my learner's permit, and photographed me. She was able to identify the checker from the receipt and she called the checker in for an interview. The checker said that she checked everything I put on the counter. The guard also viewed some surveillance video of the checkout stand and maybe other areas. I could not see the video from where I sat, but I think the video of the checkout should have shown that I did nothing wrong. The guard told me that she had concluded that I was shoplifting by "accidental stealing" and could be prosecuted. I don't really understand what that means. However, she told me that she would release me without charges if I cooperated. She wrote up a statement that said I had removed an item from the store without paying for it and promised never to return. By this time all I wanted was for this to be over with and to be allowed to go home so I agreed to sign it. She then took the handcuffs off of me and had me sign the statement. The papers did not say anything about a checker's mistake or anything like that, but I was afraid to argue with her so I signed. All of this took maybe 30 to 45 minutes.

I expected to be able to leave then but she told me that because I was a minor she would have to release me to a responsible adult. I protested at this because I had understood that she had promised to let me go and I was not even planning on telling my mother about it. The guard told me that I was getting visibly upset again and that I should take some more deep breaths and calm down or she would have to put me in handcuffs again. I felt helpless and I tried to calm down as much as I could. She then called my mother at work, who had to make arrangements to leave early and come down and get me. I had to wait about another hour and 15 minutes. When my mother came the guard had the male employee come back in and sit with me while she talked to my mother in another room. She then escorted my mother and me out to the parking lot and I was finally allowed to go home.

The guard gave my mother a copy of the statement I had signed and also a copy of the guard's report. The report pretty much tells what happened but does not say anything about the video having cleared me. My mother is angry with me and thinks the whole thing is my fault. I have told my mother my side of the story but she believes that I did steal from the store and was lucky to "get off lightly." She also has told me that even if I was innocent I had behaved badly with the guard, "got what I deserved", and have hopefully "learned my lesson."

MY QUESTIONS

I have read what is on your website and I have some questions.

1. You say that the security person should actually see you take and conceal something to have "probable cause". In my case that did not happen. Was the security guard acting unlawfully when she detained me?

2. If the guard did not have probable cause, would I have had the legal right to run away or fight back when she detained me?

3. When I explained that there must have been a mistake and offered to pay for the item, shouldn't that have been the end of it?

4. If the guard had probable cause to detain me, was it legal for her to take me by the arm and lead me back to the security area?

5. Was it legal for the "pat down" to be done? I don't see how that was necessary for anybody's safety.

6. Was it legal for the guard to handcuff me?

7. How can anyone "accidentally steal" something?
 
1. You say that the security person should actually see you take and conceal something to have "probable cause". In my case that did not happen. Was the security guard acting unlawfully when she detained me?
You have misread. What has been said on this site are the guidlines for stops not the laws. These "steps" (as, they are commonly called, are rules teh retailers put on security to help reduce bad stops

2. If the guard did not have probable cause, would I have had the legal right to run away or fight back when she detained me?
The security team has the legal right to detain you in an attempt to investigate a possible theft

3. When I explained that there must have been a mistake and offered to pay for the item, shouldn't that have been the end of it?
No most retailers do not allow shoplifters to pay for items once caught

4. If the guard had probable cause to detain me, was it legal for her to take me by the arm and lead me back to the security area?
Yes

5. Was it legal for the "pat down" to be done? I don't see how that was necessary for anybody's safety.
Yes

6. Was it legal for the guard to handcuff me?
Yes

7. How can anyone "accidentally steal" something?
Not sure where they got that from.
 
I have a feeling you've left out parts of your story but here ya go:

1. You say that the security person should actually see you take and conceal something to have "probable cause". In my case that did not happen. Was the security guard acting unlawfully when she detained me?
No, not wrong, alarm went off, you had unpaid merchandise

2. If the guard did not have probable cause, would I have had the legal right to run away or fight back when she detained me?
No, you'd just open yourself up to an assault charge/butt kicking

3. When I explained that there must have been a mistake and offered to pay for the item, shouldn't that have been the end of it?
no, you left with un paid merchandise, they have every right to arrest you.

4. If the guard had probable cause to detain me, was it legal for her to take me by the arm and lead me back to the security area?
Yes, if you don't come back we make you come back.

5. Was it legal for the "pat down" to be done? I don't see how that was necessary for anybody's safety.
We don't know if you have a gun, knife, needles, razors, or other weapons.

6. Was it legal for the guard to handcuff me?
Yes, you're under arrest. Criminals get put in handcuffs.

7. How can anyone "accidentally steal" something?
You can't therefore yet unpaid merchandise found its way your bag...like magic.
 
Admin and Storedetectivevet (and any other person interested enough to post):

I have to admit that I was hoping what you would have to say would be more supportive of me, but I didn't come here for sympathy, just to try to figure out whether what happened was legal. It sounds like it was. Thanks for your comments.

I do not want to argue with anybody, but I do have a few more questions, mostly because of Storedetectivevet's comments.

I did not intentionally leave anything important out of my story. I did not say all the details because I thought it was a pretty long post already and I was trying not to write a book. Here are some of the details, whether they make me look bad or not.

AT THE CASH REGISTER

I am not saying that the CD got into my bag "like magic". I took the CD's from the store rack and put them in the plastic carry basket the store gives you. I left them there until I got to the cash register, took them out there, and never concealed them. The checker rang things up and I bagged. I thought I had paid for the CD but obviously it was not rung up.

IN THE PARKING LOT

Here is most of my conversation with the guard in the parking lot after she approached me, introduced herself, and looked through my bag. I don't mean it's really word for word, but this is the closest I can remember. I've taken some creative writing classes in school, and they taught us there that if you write about an experience and add dialogue you can get a pretty good feel for what happened, even if you don't really have the quotes right. I know that when I talked to the guard I started shaking early on and I probably stuttered and stammered a lot. I've left that out..

Guard: "Did you take this CD from the store too?"

Me: "Yes".

Guard: "Do you have a receipt for it Gary?" (She had my name from the credit card receipt for the other stuff.)

Me: "What do you mean? It should be right on there." (Again, obviously, it wasn't or I wouldn't have gotten into this mess.)

Guard: "Gary, why did you take it without paying for it?" (I think my knees started to shake about here.)

Me: "Look, I don't know. There must have been a mistake."

Guard: "Well, help me out here Gary, 'cause I'm not seeing a mistake. You meant to take it from the store, right?"

Me: "Yes, but –"

Guard: "And you didn't pay for it, right?"

Me: "Well, I guess not - "

Guard: "You guess not? Well, either you paid for it or you didn't, Gary. You've already told me that you don't have a receipt for it. Did you lose the receipt?"

Me: "No - "

Guard: "Then you didn't pay for it, right?"

Me: "Well, okay, I didn't pay for it. But I meant to."

Guard: "So you're saying you forgot to pay for it? Is that the mistake, Gary? You forgot to pay for it but it wound up in your bag anyway and you took it out of the store?"

Me. "No. Look, I'm sorry, but the checker, she must have missed it or the machine didn't work right."

Guard: "The scanner checked everything else out okay."

Me: "Then it must have been the checker's mistake."

Guard: "Is the checker a friend of yours, Gary?"

Me: "No. I've never seen her before."

Guard: "Why didn't you go back to the register when the alarm went off or wait for a store employee?"

Me: "I guess I should have. I looked around and nobody was there or seemed to be looking, so I left. I thought it was a false alarm. I see those things go off and people blow through them all the time."

Guard: "They sure do. And when I can I go after them and try to find out why all the time."

Me: "Look, I don't want any trouble. I'm willing to pay for it."

Guard: "I'm glad you're willing to pay for it now, Gary, even though you didn't get around to paying for it before you took it from the store. First, though, I've got to finish my investigation of why this CD left the store without being paid for. I can't do that out here in the parking lot. I'd like you to come along with me back to the security area where we can discuss this further."

Me: "Hey, we don't have to do that. I told you the checker must have screwed up."

Guard: "Then lets talk to her together, Gary, after I get you back inside and to a secure area."

Me. "But I told you, I'm willing to pay for it. Or I can just give it back to you."

Guard (sounding a little bit impatient by now): "I told you that first I've got to investigate why this CD left the store without being paid for. Now Gary, you have to come back with me to the security area. We'll sit down and talk this over. I'll bring in the checker and we'll see what she has to say. You'll have a chance to explain or make any statement you like. There's a good chance that we can clear this whole thing up. When I'm done with my investigation I'll decide what to do. Now lets go."

Me: (I guess I knew my goose was cooked already, but I made one last attempt at talking my way out of it.) "Please, can't you just let me go. Its not like I couldn't afford to buy it. I've even got cash on me. I could just give you a twenty and pay you for the CD right here."

Guard: "NO!" (I think that this is the only time she ever actually got angry with me, and it was only for a moment.) "Gary, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you. I'm going to escort you back to the security area. (This is when she took me by the arm and hand.) Now, you're in enough trouble already Gary. Don't make it worse. PLEASE make this easy on both of us and come along quietly."

And so, we went.

IN THE SECURITY AREA

In the parking lot I was just scared but I was able to hold it together. I got really upset in the security area, not being able to call my mother and being handcuffed and all, so I don't remember
everything that was said here so well.

What I do remember is that when the guard got done looking at the surveillance video she said: "I'm not buying your story, Gary. It sounds pretty lame. The checker is trained to make sure every item gets scanned in. She says that's what she did. I believe her. The video shows that you had a CD in your hand at the checkout. I think you were doing what we call "accidental stealing", paying with one hand and stealing with another. I can get you prosecuted for that and convicted."

Well, we talked some more, I cried, apologized, and begged a lot, and fortunately she decided not to prosecute me.

I know that was a long statement, but I really am trying not to leave anything important out.

QUESTIONS:

1. Don't checkers make mistakes sometimes?

2. Don't cash register scanners miss items sometimes?

3. I am still confused about the "accidental stealing" part. If I had the CD in plain view at the checkout how could anybody think I was stealing it? (Please don't me mad at me for asking this again. Maybe I am just dumb but I don't get it.)

3. If this ever happens in any store again (and I don't think it will because I am going to make sure I always check my receipts at the register from now on, like the old ladies do) would I be in a better position if, when an alarm goes off, I don't try to leave? Is it better to return to the register or wait for a store employee? If I don't try to leave can I expect the same treatment? (Being interrogated, taken to the security area, handcuffed, etc.?)

4. Having written out the conversation in the parking lot, I can see that the security guard's reaction was pretty much like yours, Storedetectivevet. So, did I make thing worse by talking to her? Would I have been better off just going with her and not saying anything? How could I have handled this better?

5. No offense, but if anything you Storedetectivevet seem to be coming down even harder on me than the security guard. Based on what you've read, if you had caught me would you have called the cops on me? I know what you would have done may not really matter but I would like to know if my mother is right when she says I was lucky and got off lightly.

6. I know that a civil demand is coming to me and my mother. The guard said that would probably happen. My mother has already said that fighting it would be a waste of time and that she will have to pay it. From what I have read on this site and elsewhere it sounds like we would be dead in the water on that if we made it go to court. Do you agree?.

By the way, not that it should matter to you, but I have had to face consequences from this. The whole experience was the most humiliating thing I have ever been through. I am in the doghouse with my mother, grounded for three months, double chores (my sister now has none), no pleasure driving, Sunday church mandatory again, Bible study classes, and "volunteer" work at the church on weekends, helping to babysit the little kids while services are held. Plus, somehow I will have to pay back my mother when the civil demand comes in.

Thanks again for your help.
 
If you expect me to read that novel your wrong! I can make this short and sweet

. You left store with unpaid for merchandise (thats theft)
. Your intent or their mistake can likely not be proven (still theft)

Your converation with store security is unimportant (so I didnt read it)
Now your questions

QUESTIONS:

1. Don't checkers make mistakes sometimes?
Dumb question you know they sometimes do

2. Don't cash register scanners miss items sometimes?
See above answer. Which still cannot be proven so your back at you left store with CD you didn't pay for

3. I am still confused about the "accidental stealing" part. If I had the CD in plain view at the checkout how could anybody think I was stealing it? (Please don't me mad at me for asking this again. Maybe I am just dumb but I don't get it.)
Happens all the time. The best place to hide something is in plain sight

3. If this ever happens in any store again (and I don't think it will because I am going to make sure I always check my receipts at the register from now on, like the old ladies do) would I be in a better position if, when an alarm goes off, I don't try to leave? Is it better to return to the register or wait for a store employee? If I don't try to leave can I expect the same treatment? (Being interrogated, taken to the security area, handcuffed, etc.?)
You should always stop when alarms goes off it makes you look less guilty

4. Having written out the conversation in the parking lot, I can see that the security guard's reaction was pretty much like yours, Storedetectivevet. So, did I make thing worse by talking to her? Would I have been better off just going with her and not saying anything? How could I have handled this better?
20/20 hindsight means nothing now. One should always do as instructed when faced with Law Enforcement or security staff

5. No offense, but if anything you Storedetectivevet seem to be coming down even harder on me than the security guard. Based on what you've read, if you had caught me would you have called the cops on me? I know what you would have done may not really matter but I would like to know if my mother is right when she says I was lucky and got off lightly.
Why are we playing "what if"?

6. I know that a civil demand is coming to me and my mother. The guard said that would probably happen. My mother has already said that fighting it would be a waste of time and that she will have to pay it. From what I have read on this site and elsewhere it sounds like we would be dead in the water on that if we made it go to court. Do you agree?.
Fighting it might cost more than the fine. Its your call but as long as they did not prosecute your still ahead of the game. If you ask me (and you have) pay it
 
Dear AssetProtection:

Although I feel like I am getting beat up some by you and StoreDetectiveVet I still appreciate your comments. I am still working through this.

I will try to make this short and sweet too.

Your post: "If you expect me to read that novel your wrong!"
The reason I put in so much detail is that StoreDetectiveVet wrote: "I have a feeling you've left out parts of your story." I was just trying to put everything down the way it happened while it is still (painfully) fresh in my mind. Unless someone has a question about the facts I am done trying to explain what happened. The vote seems to be going universally against me.

Your post: "You left store with unpaid for merchandise (thats theft). Your intent or their mistake can likely not be proven (still theft)."
From everything I read elsewhere, in order to be convicted for theft they have to prove you intended to take something that didn't belong to you. Because no one is a mind reader they prove that by showing what happened. Sort of like, "You look like you meant to steal because you acted a certain way (hiding something in your jacket) or said something ("I stole it.")." If you mean that because I walked out of the store with something that was not rung up it looks like I was guilty, I won't argue that point further. I still don't think it is a crime if it was a mistake, particularly by the checker or the scanner.

Question 1, your post: "Dumb question you know they sometimes do."
Question 2, your post: "See above answer. Which still cannot be proven so your back at you left store with CD you didn't pay for."

I get your point, but all I was getting at is that if the checker made a mistake or if the scanner didn't pick it up that is a reasonable explanation of how the CD got out of the store without being paid for. Apparently, no one, not the security guard, my mother, StoreDetectiveVet, or you seem to think that's worth considering. Okay, I guess I will have to live with that.

Question 3, your post: "Happens all the time. The best place to hide something is in plain sight."
Thanks. I really mean it. That is the first hint of a real explanation I have gotten on that point. I guess the idea is that I may have took the CD past the checker, without paying for it, while paying for the other stuff. That would be consistent with what the security guard said.

Question 4, your post: "20/20 hindsight means nothing now. One should always do as instructed when faced with Law Enforcement or security staff."
I don't agree that 20/20 hindsight means nothing. I am trying to learn from the experience.

What I was getting at here was that talking to the guard just seemed to make things worse as all of her questions were directed at getting me to admit I was guilty, when I wasn't. I was wondering if it is better practice to just pretty much say nothing, even if your innocent. Having said that, I can see that I should have been more obedient and gone with her to the security area right away, instead of arguing. From what Admin says the store security has the right to make you come and StoreDetectiveVet says I could have got a "butt kicking." (I am certainly getting on this site.) Lesson learned.

Thankfully the security guard was pretty easy on me, just taking me by the arm, and didn't hurt me (although I feel like from the way she held me she knew how to do that if she wanted to.)

Question 5, your post: "Why are we playing "what if"?
Because I am still in the doghouse with my mother and we disagree about what happened. I don't think I'll ever convince her I was innocent, but it might make things easier for me if someone confirmed that she is right and I could have easily landed in jail for this mistake.

Question 6, your post: "Fighting it might cost more than the fine. Its your call but as long as they did not prosecute your still ahead of the game. If you ask me (and you have) pay it."
Actually, paying it is my mother's call. But thanks and I agree.
 
That was short!? :rolleyes:

Your post: "If you expect me to read that novel your wrong!"
The reason I put in so much detail is that StoreDetectiveVet wrote: "I have a feeling you've left out parts of your story." I was just trying to put everything down the way it happened while it is still (painfully) fresh in my mind. Unless someone has a question about the facts I am done trying to explain what happened. The vote seems to be going universally against me.
Most of that had nothing to do with anything

Your post: "You left store with unpaid for merchandise (thats theft). Your intent or their mistake can likely not be proven (still theft)."
From everything I read elsewhere, in order to be convicted for theft they have to prove you intended to take something that didn't belong to you. Because no one is a mind reader they prove that by showing what happened. Sort of like, "You look like you meant to steal because you acted a certain way (hiding something in your jacket) or said something ("I stole it.")." If you mean that because I walked out of the store with something that was not rung up it looks like I was guilty, I won't argue that point further. I still don't think it is a crime if it was a mistake, particularly by the checker or the scanner.
1st You were not prosecuted so the whole intent issue wont fly. 2nd You left store with merchandise that had not been paid for. They don't need to prove intent !

Question 1, your post: "Dumb question you know they sometimes do."
Question 2, your post: "See above answer. Which still cannot be proven so your back at you left store with CD you didn't pay for."
I get your point, but all I was getting at is that if the checker made a mistake or if the scanner didn't pick it up that is a reasonable explanation of how the CD got out of the store without being paid for. Apparently, no one, not the security guard, my mother, StoreDetectiveVet, or you seem to think that's worth considering. Okay, I guess I will have to live with that.
Not saying it cant happen (read my post) However again it snot an issue since charges were not filed. by the way every shoplifter says it was an accident or cashier made mistake. That may be your case but the real thieves wore out that excuse


Question 3, your post: "Happens all the time. The best place to hide something is in plain sight."
Thanks. I really mean it. That is the first hint of a real explanation I have gotten on that point. I guess the idea is that I may have took the CD past the checker, without paying for it, while paying for the other stuff. That would be consistent with what the security guard said.
Duh!

Question 4, your post: "20/20 hindsight means nothing now. One should always do as instructed when faced with Law Enforcement or security staff."
I don't agree that 20/20 hindsight means nothing. I am trying to learn from the experience.
Why you plan on walking out with more CD's?

What I was getting at here was that talking to the guard just seemed to make things worse as all of her questions were directed at getting me to admit I was guilty, when I wasn't. I was wondering if it is better practice to just pretty much say nothing, even if your innocent. Having said that, I can see that I should have been more obedient and gone with her to the security area right away, instead of arguing. From what Admin says the store security has the right to make you come and StoreDetectiveVet says I could have got a "butt kicking." (I am certainly getting on this site.) Lesson learned.
Some security staff like some people are butts! Long as you were not harmed it was legal to talk down to you

Thankfully the security guard was pretty easy on me, just taking me by the arm, and didn't hurt me (although I feel like from the way she held me she knew how to do that if she wanted to.)
We are trained to walk suspect back to store in this manner for everyones protection

Question 5, your post: "Why are we playing "what if"?
Because I am still in the doghouse with my mother and we disagree about what happened. I don't think I'll ever convince her I was innocent, but it might make things easier for me if someone confirmed that she is right and I could have easily landed in jail for this mistake.
She still loves you and this will pass. Your beating this dead horse only keeps it in her mind

Question 6, your post: "Fighting it might cost more than the fine. Its your call but as long as they did not prosecute your still ahead of the game. If you ask me (and you have) pay it."
Actually, paying it is my mother's call. But thanks and I agree.gary

Look guilt or innocence is courts job not mine! If you walk out of the store with merchandise you did not pay for expect to be brought back into store. Its that simple. If I believed every story I was told I would never stop anyone! I get it your not guilty but security is not in that business! If you had any clue how much shoplifting cost stores and how harshly store security is Judge you might think different. I know we were hard on you but lesson learned. Move past this and focus on the rest of your life it could have been a lot worse ;)
 
Dear Asset Protection:

I am about done here, I think, but I have just a few more comments.

This site is supposed to be about helping people caught shoplifting. To quote from the index:
"What happens when you're caught shoplifting? Questions about your situation?"

As I said, I did not come here looking for sympathy. I don't mind getting roughed up by the answers, but your last post was unfair in three places.

Last time, I wrote, on the subject of "accidental stealing":

"Thanks. I really mean it. That is the first hint of a real explanation I have gotten on that point. I guess the idea is that I may have took the CD past the checker, without paying for it, while paying for the other stuff. That would be consistent with what the security guard said."

Your post: "Duh!"


You know, after I thanked you politely I really think it is out of line for you to suggest that I am stupid. I am 17 and have never been in any kind of trouble before. Until this all happened I didn't know anything about shoplifting, loss prevention, or asset protection. When I researched this on this site and elsewhere after I got caught with the CD, the big buzz word seemed to be "concealment". Practically 99% of the stuff you can read about is about how important it is for security to see the shoplifter conceal and hide the item. That didn't happen in my case and that's one reason I have been so confused. It may seem obvious to you that someone would try to steal something in plain sight but it isn't to me (at least is wasn't to me before this) and I don't think it is to most people. In any case, if you are going to be part of a forum that is supposed to help people in trouble and provide answers, I don't think you should be insulting them for asking a question. My father, God rest his soul, always said that there are no stupid questions.

Again, last time I said: "I don't agree that 20/20 hindsight means nothing. I am trying to learn from the experience."
Your post: "Why you plan on walking out with more CD's?"


Again, I think you are out of line. You don't have to take the time to read about what happened with the security guard if you don't want to, but a sarcastic response wasn't necessary or even called for. I was just trying to learn from whatever mistakes I made - again, something my father taught me. I don't ever plan on being caught in this kind of situation again, but if it happens and someone with your attitude approaches me I will be obedient but say as little as possible because I have the impression that you enjoy ridiculing people. And by the way, I am not suggesting that the security guard who took me into custody was a "butt". She was tough, but never personally insulting. I would rather have her approach me again than you.

Last, your post, "She still loves you and this will pass. Your beating this dead horse only keeps it in her mind."
I don't know why you don't want to anwer my question when this site is supposed to be about answers, but by now I guess I don't really care what you have to say. All I will say further is that you have no idea of my home situation and what is dead and what isn't.
 
All your questions were answered! If not then without writing a page long post ask your question. You dont like the answers I am sorry the are accurate. Your 17 (not an adult) with much yet to learn. Concealment is not a criteria for theft although in some states its enough. In all cases all that is required is for unpaid for merchandise to be taken past the last point of sale! Its that simple. I acknowledge that mistakes are made. You have not acknowledged that some people lie. I will guess that 90% of all accussed shoplifter say they took items by mistake and had intended to pay or that cashier made mistake. If you hear that everyday you get to believe no one. You were not prosecuted so your beating a dead horse. You have two options

1. pay Civil Demand
2. Don't pay Civil Demand and deal with consequences

Its that simple. Let me also tell you I was hard on purpose! It was to get my point across. Any candycoated reply might not have. Did I intend to upset or insult you? NO! I dont know you and in fact believe it was a mistake. Now instead of writing Novels how about rereading what you have been told all your answers are there. If not then just ask the questions without using 1000 words. I will be happy to answer as I am sure others as well. Last and I repeat your making something out of nothing you were not charged once Civil Demand is paid this is over!!
 
gary said:
1. You say that the security person should actually see you take and conceal something to have "probable cause". In my case that did not happen. Was the security guard acting unlawfully when she detained me?
No. However, laws vary by state. In most instances, the alarm coupled with the discovery of an UNPAID item in your possession would be sufficient for at least a detention. In fact, it could well be sufficient probable cause to support an arrest.

2. If the guard did not have probable cause, would I have had the legal right to run away or fight back when she detained me?
That depends on the laws in your state. However, given what you described, there appears to have been quite sufficient reasonable suspicion for a detention.

Note that the legal standard for a detention is less than that needed for an arrest. The standard for a detention is often termed "reasonable suspicion", or, "articulable suspicion", while the standard for an arrest is based upon "probable cause."

3. When I explained that there must have been a mistake and offered to pay for the item, shouldn't that have been the end of it?
Not at all! If that were the case, why have laws? Bernie Madhoff could simply have thrown up his hands and said. "Alright, it was a mistake - I'll pay them all back!"

It does not work that way. If a person is caught stealing, they don't get a "gimme". While it may truly have been an accident, the security personnel are under no legal obligation to believe you when you say it was an error. And, chances are, they will have some kind of video to show whether you did or did not present the item to the clerk, or whether the clerk snuck the item into your bag without you knowing about it (though I wonder how many CDs they have squirreled away behind the counter at that store).

4. If the guard had probable cause to detain me, was it legal for her to take me by the arm and lead me back to the security area?
Probably so. But, that will depend on the laws of your state. Since they could probably have placed you in handcuffs, an escort by the arm is not likely to be seen out of line.

5. Was it legal for the "pat down" to be done? I don't see how that was necessary for anybody's safety.
You don't have to see the reason or even agree with it. They would be foolish NOT to conduct a pat-down of your person or search your belongings for any weapons or additional stolen goods.

6. Was it legal for the guard to handcuff me?
Almost certainly. Again, the laws in your state might have something different when dealing with juveniles and shoplifters. But, generally, it should be legal to handcuff someone who is lawfully detained or for which there exists probable cause to arrest.

7. How can anyone "accidentally steal" something?
I don't believe you can. It may have been a poor use of words by the security guard, or, it may have been his way of saying that maybe you did not do it after all.


- Carl
 
You are welcome.

But, it appears you have already obtained essentially the same replies.

It also appears that you will not be going to court so this is effectively much ado over nothing at this point.

Even if the checker made a mistake, or even if the CD was stuck to something and got stuck and dumped into your bag, the security officer might still have reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause to take action. Bottom line is that if the charge is ultimately unfounded, the actions of a private person or even a peace officer can be entirely reasonable based upon the information they have in front of them the time they took that action.

- Carl
 
Gary take your personal issues with other to PM and not on site. I already discussed this matter with you if it is still an issue then it is but lets not drag out in open
 
Dear cdwjava:

You're pretty much right on both counts. Other persons did post to me earlier. Personally, it does not really feel like "much ado about nothing", but I guess that' was true for the characters if you see Shakespeare's play of the same name.

Thanks again.
 
Dear jacksgal:

I am a little confused by your message.

You said: "I've already discussed this matter with you."

I have no idea what you mean. I have not received any posts from you and I only signed up to this site the other day.

As for "personal issues with other", I've already said I don't want to talk to Asset Protection again so I won't say anything more, unless he wants to keep talking about it in the open.
 
I sent you a PM. You got your answers. There isnt much more to say on this
 
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