Parental Alienation

[cchohne]

Jurisdiction

Indiana

Two divorced parents are planning the summer. A court decision is pending on the new schedule within 3 weeks. "Parent A" makes it clear to the other "Parent B" that the schedule will remain 50/50 this summer per the existing court order until the new order comes out. Then "Parent B" takes the 15-year old son aside and they make a schedule together that is 70/30 and skewed toward Parent B. Then Parent B demands that they use the schedule because it is the wishes of the son. Now the son calls the schedule "his schedule" and is angry at Parent A.

Many things like this have happened over the past 10 years and it has been getting increasing worse as the boys have gotten older. With the boys almost 18 and 15 years of age, they now have a lot of resentment toward Parent A. The most important thing is the health and well being of these boys but Parent A is at a loss for what to do. Parental Alienation is difficult to prove and seems to be nearly impossible to stop.

 

[adjusterjack]

You're asking the same question on two sites where several of us are on both sites. LOL.

You wrote on the other site that you are the stepdad married to Parent A.

How far apart in miles does Parent A live from Parent B?

 

[Red Kayak]

"Parent A" makes it clear to the other "Parent B" that the schedule will remain 50/50 this summer per the existing court order until the new order comes out.

Legally, that isn't wrong.

After all, it's a court order, not a court suggestion. And the kids are old enough to know that.

Please get Parent A on here, preferably using their own account.

While I generally agree with Parent A, I'm also pretty sure that we are not getting the full story, and there may be very good reasons to be a little bit more flexible. While sticking to the old schedule might be the fairest thing for both parents, it might not be in the best interests of the kid. Maybe the kid wants to earn money. Maybe the kid wants to take a summer course. Maybe the kid is a recruitable athlete. Maybe the kid wants to work of essays for their college applications. Maybe the kid has an Eagle Scout project.

 

[adjusterjack]

Hello Parent A:

You've had 10 years of hostility between you and your ex using the boys as pawns in the battle. You blame your ex, he blames you, doesn't matter. Now the boys have taken a side and it's not yours.

As gut-wrenching as this will be, you need to forget about court orders and tell the boys that they are free to decide who to visit and when.

Then, instead of battling with your ex, which is only going to foment more resentment, work on incentivizing the boys to engage in activities with you, one step at a time.

 

[zddoodah]

Many things like this have happened over the past 10 years and it has been getting increasing worse as the boys have gotten older.

Giving us only one example (which isn't all that bad) and then saying "many things like this have happened" really isn't helpful. That's not to say that I think you should give us dozens of examples, but this illustrates the limitations of internet message boards for some situations.

the boys [are] almost 18 and 15 years of age

The almost 18-year old will be a legal adult soon, so this is all moot as to him. Either way, older kids like these should typically be given a substantial say in the matter when it comes to splitting time. Also, high school kids are typically pretty busy unless they have no extracurricular activities.

Parent A is at a loss for what to do.

At a loss to do about what? Based on the scant information provided, it sounds to me like A is more concerned about fighting than making the kids happy.

By the way, can we safely assume that you're A?

 

[justblue]

Giving us only one example (which isn't all that bad) and then saying "many things like this have happened" really isn't helpful. That's not to say that I think you should give us dozens of examples, but this illustrates the limitations of internet message boards for some situations.




The almost 18-year old will be a legal adult soon, so this is all moot as to him. Either way, older kids like these should typically be given a substantial say in the matter when it comes to splitting time. Also, high school kids are typically pretty busy unless they have no extracurricular activities.




At a loss to do about what? Based on the scant information provided, it sounds to me like A is more concerned about fighting than making the kids happy.

By the way, can we safely assume that you're A?

No. OP is As spouse.

 

[cchohne]

Giving us only one example (which isn't all that bad) and then saying "many things like this have happened" really isn't helpful. That's not to say that I think you should give us dozens of examples, but this illustrates the limitations of internet message boards for some situations.




The almost 18-year old will be a legal adult soon, so this is all moot as to him. Either way, older kids like these should typically be given a substantial say in the matter when it comes to splitting time. Also, high school kids are typically pretty busy unless they have no extracurricular activities.




At a loss to do about what? Based on the scant information provided, it sounds to me like A is more concerned about fighting than making the kids happy.

By the way, can we safely assume that you're A?

Parent A has been complaining about alienation in meetings with our family therapist for the past three years. Parent As relationship with the boys was eroding because they came back every week and wanted to fight with their mom about how the 50/50 schedule wasn't fair to their dad. By the end of the week, mom and the boys seemed to have healed their differences but then the boys would go back to dads place. Every time they came back, they hated mom again and wanted to fight for a few days.

Last year, in one of the family therapy meetings (entire parenting team plus boys), mom agreed to a trial of a 10 days with dad and 4 days with mom schedule during the school year. Her hopes were that the desire to fight would end. Instead, it got worse and there wasn't as much time to heal. Mom requested that the entire group meet with the family therapist again. Father refused and said the boys had the schedule that they wanted so everything would be handled in court from that point on. Now, it is 9 months later and we were starting the summer schedule. That is where the thread above picked up. Holiday schedule should have been 50/50. Mom tried to strongarm dad on that point since there is no communication and everything is left to the court. Dads response was to grab the boys and create a summer schedule that he called "the boys" schedule.

I agree with many of the remarks but my concern is that father has taken away much of the ability of the mother to be a parent and the boys relationship with their mother has been even more strained since she gave into the trial. Every request for extra time with the boys has been denied by the father and the boys are afraid to rock the boat on that side. Mother could just give up and say "do whatever you want to do" but I don't see the father ending the "alienation" or active attack on mother after he gets his way.

 

[Zigner]

There sure was a lot of "I" and "we" in that post.
Mom and dad are going to need to deal with this.

 

[justblue]

Parent A has been complaining about alienation in meetings with our family therapist for the past three years. Parent As relationship with the boys was eroding because they came back every week and wanted to fight with their mom about how the 50/50 schedule wasn't fair to their dad. By the end of the week, mom and the boys seemed to have healed their differences but then the boys would go back to dads place. Every time they came back, they hated mom again and wanted to fight for a few days.

Last year, in one of the family therapy meetings (entire parenting team plus boys), mom agreed to a trial of a 10 days with dad and 4 days with mom schedule during the school year. Her hopes were that the desire to fight would end. Instead, it got worse and there wasn't as much time to heal. Mom requested that the entire group meet with the family therapist again. Father refused and said the boys had the schedule that they wanted so everything would be handled in court from that point on. Now, it is 9 months later and we were starting the summer schedule. That is where the thread above picked up. Holiday schedule should have been 50/50. Mom tried to strongarm dad on that point since there is no communication and everything is left to the court. Dads response was to grab the boys and create a summer schedule that he called "the boys" schedule.

I agree with many of the remarks but my concern is that father has taken away much of the ability of the mother to be a parent and the boys relationship with their mother has been even more strained since she gave into the trial. Every request for extra time with the boys has been denied by the father and the boys are afraid to rock the boat on that side. Mother could just give up and say "do whatever you want to do" but I don't see the father ending the "alienation" or active attack on mother after he gets his way.

Is there a good reason that Mother, the actual legal party, can't post for herself?

 

[adjusterjack]

boys has been denied by the father and the boys are afraid to rock the boat on that side. Mother could just give up and say "do whatever you want to do" but I don't see the father ending the "alienation" or active attack on mother after he gets his way.

I'd love to hear the father's side of the story.

You're giving us second hand incomplete information biased in favor of your wife, Parent A.

You just mentioned 3 years of family therapy suggesting that A and B have been dysfunctional for a long time and are screwing up their kids with their hostility.

Good luck trying to fix that.

 

[cchohne]

We are going to be meeting with the family therapist this weekend as a full group. My wife is very busy and overwhelmed right now so my hope was that posting information in this forum would help give us different perspectives so that we can go into the discussion with grace and make decisions that are best for our boys. Primarily, I was trying to give my wife enough other perspectives that we could ensure that we don't just keep drinking our own bath water as we go I to the first group discussion in a year.

 

[Zigner]

We are going to be meeting with the family therapist this weekend as a full group. My wife is very busy and overwhelmed right now so my hope was that posting information in this forum would help give us different perspectives so that we can go into the discussion with grace and make decisions that are best for our boys. Primarily, I was trying to give my wife enough other perspectives that we could ensure that we don't just keep drinking our own bath water as we go I to the first group discussion in a year.

There sure is a lot of "we" and "our" in that post. YOU are not a legal party to this matter. Honestly, if I were dad, I would be bristling at your involvement in such therapy.

I suspect that there have been years of overstepping causing friction between the parents of these boys.

 

[army judge]

Is there a good reason that Mother, the actual legal party, can't post for herself?

Allow me to introduce one of my favorite Gunsmoke characters, Festus.

Unfortunately, Ken Curtis' character, Festus, was illiterate.

Festus Haggen (played by Ken Curtis) is Matt Dillon's deputy marshal and one of the main characters of Gunsmoke who would first appear in the Season 8 episode "Us Haggens" (episode #13, December 8, 1962). Originally starting as a scruffy hillman who wanted revenge on his uncle for killing his brother, he eventually became Matt Dillon's deputy and one of his friends. From his first appearance in Season 8, Festus would remain with the series for the rest of its network run on CBS, through Season 20, in close to 300 episodes.

 

[welkin]

Mother could just give up and say "do whatever you want to do" but I don't see the father ending the "alienation" or active attack on mother after he gets his way.

The way you describe the situation as alienation may be a perception and not a reality. Teenagers (boys) may have more in common with activities that fathers and sons do together than what sons and mothers do together. The boys may very well want to spend more time with their father without the father trying to alienate mom.

Dad may be buying them thing, taking them on trips, taking them to sporting events, buying them the latest trends in cloths, etc. Mom may never see those things because they are left at dad's house.

Take your own advice quoted above. When the boys come home don't be confrontational at all. Be cordial and ask if they had a good time. If they don't want to talk about it, don't press it. You will find out in due course.

I have a very good friend that has been divorced for about 30 years. She has two children; she was the custodial parent with a 50/50 custody arrangement. There are a lot of similarities to your story in the early days of the children's upbring. Now, with both children grown and on their own they see the father for the shi*head that he was and is and their relationship with mom couldn't be better.

For now, it should be about what your almost adult children want to make them happy. The only issue that you need to watch out for is any change in child support due to the change in shared custody if the father is low enough to try to change it.