Problem with As-In used car sale

[CarGuyOntario]

Jurisdiction

Ontario

Hi all,
I sold a car last week, it was a 2007. The car was sold as-is (the ad listing it stated "the car is being sold as-is but I am not aware of any problems with it". The ad listed the features and said it didn't have any body rust, which it didn't. I honestly wasn't aware of any issues with the car. I had just decided to get a smaller car to save on fuel costs.

The buyer drove here and looked it over, and agreed to buy it. I went with him to the MTO (DMV in Ontario), and he did the paperwork to transfer ownership, got a temporary plate, and paid the taxes.

Two days later he texted me and said the vehicle failed safety inspection, that the frame is rusted. He sent me a photo of a hole in some metal. I can't tell from the photo where this is on the car.

So I'm wondering if I have any legal responsibility here? I sold the car in good faith. I didn't know there was any damage to the frame from rust. I feel horrible about it, but I did sell the car as-is. I don't know if I should ask for more information about the damage, or if any communication back to him might be opening me up to trouble.

I do plan on contacting a lawyer but want as much advice as I can get. I've been on the other side of an as-is sale before and know it's a horrible feeling for the buyer as well.

Thanks for any input.

 

[army judge]

This site addresses issues related to US Federal and/or US state related problems.

No one on our site knows much, if anything about Canadian federal or provincial law.
You need to seek the guidance and counsel of one your provinces licensed solicitors.

In the US, all private seller to private buyer used car sales are always "AS IS".

You added language to your ad starting our "AS IS", but puffed by saying "I am not aware of any problems with it".

The PUFFING (as we call it in the States) could mean you offered a guarantee or an assessment of sorts.

That said, you need to read the information on this site that is run by The Province of Ontario:
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Buying and Selling a Used Vehicle in Ontario
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Plus the law requires (in Ontario):
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By Ontario law, private sellers of most motor vehicles, including motorcycles, must provide buyers with a Used Vehicle Information Package. This package guides you through the process of buying or selling and helps you understand your rights and responsibilities.
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You MIGHT be headed for legal trouble mate.

 

[adjusterjack]

I do plan on contacting a lawyer but want as much advice as I can get.

You need to find out more about the required Safety Standards Certificate. Is it a buyer beware thing or is the seller responsible for making sure the vehicle passes?

I can't tell one way or the other from the Ontario material.

Talk to the lawyer FIRST before you get into any discussions with the buyer, lest you say something that can be used against you.

 

[CarGuyOntario]

Thanks for the input folks. Army Judge, I did supply him with the used vehicle package (UVIP).

I spoke to two paralegals today and got similar feedback from both.

In Ontario for private car sales we're a "buyer beware" area, so the onus is on the buyer to satisfy themselves with what they are buying. When selling as-is, there is no warranty and unless I was lying or withholding important information, he likely doesn't have a case. We don't have any requirement like in some states where the seller must safety the car, it's upto the buyer.

Neither of the paralegals were very concerned with the "nothing wrong with it that I'm aware of" wording in the ad, as that is not a guarantee, just stating what my honest opinion was. Since the ad clearly stated it was As-is, this should be OK.

Also, both said that if I wanted to, I would be OK to reply to the buyer and state that while the sale was as-is, and I did not know of the rust damage, that I'd be willing to refund part of the cost to mitigate his losses. If I go this route I'd be sure to get it in writing that this is the end of the transaction and re-state the car was sold as-is and that I did not have knowledge of this isssue, and be clear I'm not admitting any fault/blame.

So I think I need to decide whether to tell him it's unfortunate but the car was sold as-is, or offer some amount of money back (after confirming with a mechanic the damage is real).

Any one see any red flags based on the above?

Thanks!

 

[army judge]

Thanks for the input folks. Army Judge, I did supply him with the used vehicle package (UVIP).

I spoke to two paralegals today and got similar feedback from both.

In Ontario for private car sales we're a "buyer beware" area, so the onus is on the buyer to satisfy themselves with what they are buying. When selling as-is, there is no warranty and unless I was lying or withholding important information, he likely doesn't have a case. We don't have any requirement like in some states where the seller must safety the car, it's upto the buyer.

Neither of the paralegals were very concerned with the "nothing wrong with it that I'm aware of" wording in the ad, as that is not a guarantee, just stating what my honest opinion was. Since the ad clearly stated it was As-is, this should be OK.

Also, both said that if I wanted to, I would be OK to reply to the buyer and state that while the sale was as-is, and I did not know of the rust damage, that I'd be willing to refund part of the cost to mitigate his losses. If I go this route I'd be sure to get it in writing that this is the end of the transaction and re-state the car was sold as-is and that I did not have knowledge of this isssue, and be clear I'm not admitting any fault/blame.

So I think I need to decide whether to tell him it's unfortunate but the car was sold as-is, or offer some amount of money back (after confirming with a mechanic the damage is real).

Any one see any red flags based on the above?

Thanks!

You must choose what you ultimately decide to do.

However, less is more.

Don't get the dog to barking, because to some people, enough is never enough.

Let's say you offer to give him $500.

He comes back and says, that's not enough.

You need to give me $1,500.

Do you want to ride the merry-go-round?

I wouldn't, but the choice is yours.

Now that you know you are in the right, legally, saying NOTHING is the best course of action.

 

[adjusterjack]

I spoke to two paralegals today and got similar feedback from both.

Understand that paralegals are not lawyers and (in the US anyway) cannot give "legal advice" so don't bet the farm on it.

In Ontario for private car sales we're a "buyer beware" area, so the onus is on the buyer to satisfy themselves with what they are buying. When selling as-is, there is no warranty and unless I was lying or withholding important information, he likely doesn't have a case. We don't have any requirement like in some states where the seller must safety the car, it's upto the buyer.

Good.

I had a feeling that was the case from what I read but I have no car selling experience in Canada.

Also, both said that if I wanted to, I would be OK to reply to the buyer and state that while the sale was as-is, and I did not know of the rust damage, that I'd be willing to refund part of the cost to mitigate his losses. If I go this route I'd be sure to get it in writing that this is the end of the transaction and re-state the car was sold as-is and that I did not have knowledge of this issue, and be clear I'm not admitting any fault/blame.

But I do have 50 some years of buying and selling my personal vehicles in the US and that is an incredibly bad idea, especially offering money. Jeez, that's an admission of guilt no matter what you write.

Frankly, I would not initiate further contact and if contacted again say (once) "As Is sale, don't contact me again." Then stop talking.

You have no way of proving you didn't know about the rust and nobody will believe you didn't know about it so there's no point in even discussing it.

 

[CarGuyOntario]

Thanks again guys, you've all been very helpful.

My wife and I are struggling with this because while we know we're legally in the right, we really bad for the person who now is stuck with a vehicle needing major repairs. I called the mechanic that did the safety today to verify that there was indeed this damage (make sure I wasn't getting scammed), and he confirmed its about $3600 of repairs needed, on a car the buyer paid $4700 for. Apparently the buyer has the same model of car already and had the same issue with his,which is why he was buying mine, so he should have known what to look for.

So, assuming we are going to go ahead and offer some cash back (even though you may not recommend it), can anyone tell me if the below wording looks OK for replying to the buyer?
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I talked to your mechanic to confirm what you've told me. As you know, the car was sold AS-IS, with no warranty. I wasn't aware of this rust issue with the frame, I sold the car in good faith. That being said, I realize you're now in a tough spot. While I don't have any legal requirement to do so, I would be willing to offer you $1000 back as a gesture of goodwill. If you accept this offer, I'd fax you an agreement to sign and fax back to me, stating what I said above in this text, and confirming you will not pursue the issue further.
-----

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks

 

[army judge]

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks

I think you know my feelings, but I'll paraphrase for you, mate.

ANYTHING you say, CAN and WILL be used against you in a court of law.

SILENCE can't ever be MISCONSTRUED, because SILENCE is never misunderstood.

The RIGHT to remain SILENT is a natural RIGHT of every living human being.

 

[txls]

Well if you really feel bad, then you could give him all of his money back, take the car back, you fix it then resell it in good condition. I'm not a lawyer or anywhere near, but in my opinion if you just insist on giving him say $1000.00 you might be better off to redo the bill of sale for $1000 less than the original price, which is in effect what you are doing by giving him money back, rather than trying to get some agreement signed. If you are determined to go that route of drawing up an agreement and trying to get him to sign, you really need a lawyer(and particularly one who knows Canadian law.)
I think you will have a hard time getting someone to sign a release for $1000 when he's looking at $3600.00 in repairs.

 

[adjusterjack]

And you know my feelings, too. Which are even stronger now that you have revealed that your buyer has a rust problem with another of the same car.

But if you are determined to make that foolish offer, that paragraph looks like it will do the trick.