Shoplifting, Larceny, Robbery, Theft Shoplifting turned burglary

[cirderf]

First off this happened in California.
A member of family was caught shoplifting at a major department store.
approx 10 items of clothing were taken at a preliminary estiment of $130.00 total ( sale price at time). these actions were caught by servalence camera within the store. We are ready to take responsibility for these actions and know what was done was very wrong.
Although always being model citizens of the community I personally don't understand why this member of the family chose to take these items rather than pay for them. But the damage is done. My only thoughts of why this bad judgement was committed is assisted in cause by several different types of pain medications possbly interfering with this family members judgement and memory capabilities. Not sure if this can be used in defense.

But were the problem really arises in this case are actions that were taken by the security department of the department store. In california i have read that the difference from felony to misdimeanor is $400.00. What should have been charged as shoplifting to this member of the family was a misdimeanor shoplifting charge. But during the retaining of the membor of the family and arrival of the sheriffs deputies the children that were with the member witnessed the following.
1) All the possesions of the defendent were held in the security room including car keys and alledged stolen articles.
2) when the defendent was moved to the patrol car a deputy and store security employee took the car keys and unlocked the car that was in the parking lot and searched it without permission. I don't beleive anything was found as the car was not impounded and I was asked to remove the vehicle from the parking lot or it would be towed.
3) 2 of the children witnessed a security employee going onto the store floor and grabbing additional items and taking them to the security room ( My only idea of this action is they added to the merchandise to bring the total price over the $400.00 mark for a felony burgarly charge.

This store has a highly complex security servaliance sytem as I was given oppurtunity to see first hand there equipment while being questioned prior to picking up the children and vehicle from the store. I personally believe if the security personell did go onto the floor to get additional items I don't think they could of done it without there own servailence sytem recording it.
Only copies of the servailence tapes that show the infraction of the shoplifting were turned over to the deputies. I beleive that maybe more videos that could pertain to the defence may exsist on there servailence system. I have ask the children to write down everything they can remeber of all activities that occured around them at the store as the arainment court day has been moved to a month down the road to to posting bail on the defendent.
I am asking that the defendent in this case be evaluted psycologically for any possibilities of medications interfering with thought processes as this type of activity is not the morality that has been established in this family.
We probably wil;l have to go with a public defender in this case as I don't think I could afford a good defense attorney at this time. But in worst case I may be forced to liquidate my 401k retirement account to defend this member of the family.
What other steps can I take to help the defense here as I don't think I can get a PD before going to arrainment first. I fear that the servailance tapes at this store may dissappear over time if I don't take steps to aquire them quickly for the defense. are there steps that these tapes can be preserved if they exist right now. Who can I contact now and what further steps can be taken.

 

[jacksgal]

Even if the security people and/or Police over stepped their authority it wont change the crime! If your looking at this as a tool to get charges dropped or minimized forget it. You or whomever faces criminal charges so yes an Attorney even a Public defender is advisable

 

[jacksgal]

On a person note. It appears as your trying to get the thieves off on this. I urge you to seek best deal but to find a means to walk teaches them nothing! My two cents

 

[jacksgal]

By the way the $400.00 mark is not the only way to make this a buglary in CA. There are several ways to do this and soon as cdwjava shows up he can better explain them. Suffice it to say that the felony charge is only there as bargaining tool for DA

 

[CdwJava]

My only thoughts of why this bad judgement was committed is assisted in cause by several different types of pain medications possbly interfering with this family members judgement and memory capabilities. Not sure if this can be used in defense.

Voluntary impairment is not usually a defense to one's actions in this state. It might be a point to negotiate for a plea deal, though.

But were the problem really arises in this case are actions that were taken by the security department of the department store. In california i have read that the difference from felony to misdimeanor is $400.00.

You read correctly when it comes to theft pursuant to PC 484. Grand Theft (PC 487) generally requires the value of the property to exceed $400 ... but, if the state can show by direct evidence or reasonable inference the defendant's intent to commit the theft (of any value) prior to his or her entry, he or she can be charged with 2nd degree (commercial) burglary ... and this CAN be charged as a felony.

1) All the possesions of the defendent were held in the security room including car keys and alledged stolen articles.

Okay.

2) when the defendent was moved to the patrol car a deputy and store security employee took the car keys and unlocked the car that was in the parking lot and searched it without permission. I don't beleive anything was found as the car was not impounded and I was asked to remove the vehicle from the parking lot or it would be towed.

The usual remedy to an unlawful search (provided it WAS an unlawful search) would be to suppress the evidence. Since there was no evidence apparently found, then there is nothing to suppress.

3) 2 of the children witnessed a security employee going onto the store floor and grabbing additional items and taking them to the security room ( My only idea of this action is they added to the merchandise to bring the total price over the $400.00 mark for a felony burgarly charge.

More likely, they were to try and match the SKU or packaging of items taken ... not likely to pad the stolen property. Very often shoplifters scatter items or packaging throughout the store. perhaps these were items he had been seen carrying and then ditched - who knows. In any event, these children can certainly be called by the defense if there is any proof that the store personnel lied about the amount of property stolen.

Only copies of the servailence tapes that show the infraction of the shoplifting were turned over to the deputies. I beleive that maybe more videos that could pertain to the defence may exsist on there servailence system.

His defense attorney can make a decision as to whether this is worth pursing (my guess is not), and he can seek a subpoena for additional video.

I have ask the children to write down everything they can remeber of all activities that occured around them at the store as the arainment court day has been moved to a month down the road to to posting bail on the defendent.

There will be NO testimony at the arraignment. The defendant will be allowed to plead guilty, not guilty, or no contest, and to ask for counsel.

The children will have to testify at trial if they have anything relevant to add. Their written statements will not be allowed in as evidence by themselves. Keep in mind that their observations and statements can also be used by the prosecution.

I am asking that the defendent in this case be evaluted psycologically for any possibilities of medications interfering with thought processes as this type of activity is not the morality that has been established in this family.

You can ASK anything you want. And if you ant to pay for an independent evaluation, you are free to do so. Whether there is any grounds for the court to accept or order any evaluation is for others to decide.

I fear that the servailance tapes at this store may dissappear over time if I don't take steps to aquire them quickly for the defense.

I doubt the tapes will be relevant. Why would they pad the items stolen? It seems silly. But, if you have some reason to believe they are framing him, present the proof of that belief to the defense attorney and see what he says.

Who can I contact now and what further steps can be taken.

You can ASK the store for additional tapes, but they are under no obligation to give you anything.

- Carl

 

[cirderf]

is it true ?

Well after extensive research I think I found the answer to padding the theft

Okay itried to be discrete here but that does not work in american law.

1st off the defendent is my wife..... I am pissed off about this.
2nd the department store is Kohls ( A german affiliation in america)


With reserarch I found why pad

1st Get the felony conviction in america
2nd after convition go for the civil suite ( Felony caused by american citizen can excede 500k )

We in america allow all of these foriegn business's here and to do so we gaurantee there safty of there merchandise.

I now understand why they pad and spend millions in servalance equipment in america because they get 10X in return

our lawyers are defensless against this foriegn crime that is occuring in the united states ..... it takes the people to stop this outside crime that is occuring...

I can't stop foriegn politics from coming to the USA
But I do have the power to show what forign politics are doing to the USA

 

[CdwJava]

With reserarch I found why pad

1st Get the felony conviction in america
2nd after convition go for the civil suite ( Felony caused by american citizen can excede 500k )

If it has been charged as a felony for a value UNDER $400, it is NOT because of the value it is because they have charged the offense as burglary or some other serious felony. Grand Theft requires the value fo the property to be over $400 ... according to what you wrote, this is NOT the case. Ergo, they did not find enough to "pad" the charge. And it takes a lot to come to $400 in shoplifting petty items.

We in america allow all of these foriegn business's here and to do so we gaurantee there safty of there merchandise.

Foreign businesses have NOTHING to do with the charge of theft. That's your bias, not the court's.

Oh, and for your information, Kohl's is a native company having begun in Brookfield, Wisconsin in 1962. So, your bias is showing.

http://www.kohlscorporation.com/AboutKohls/AboutKohls06.htm

I now understand why they pad and spend millions in servalance equipment in america because they get 10X in return

Shoplifting costs businesses in the USA FAR more than they receive in return for the few that they catch. I guarantee they have spent far more to prevent thefts.

our lawyers are defensless against this foriegn crime that is occuring in the united states ..... it takes the people to stop this outside crime that is occuring...

The only "crime" here, is the crime that your wife (or whoever) committed.

- Carl

 

[jacksgal]

FYI shoplifting costs retailers over 13 billion (thats with a B) a year!

 

[cirderf]

Unfrotunately your wrong 13 billion is only american qoute
try 39 to 99 billion is consumer costs do to international lawsuites that come after the fact. We in america give up our convicted to all foriegn nations to accept what ever they want to keep foriegn trade moving. it is all political and understandable ...... but if the outsiders are coming into our nation to take advantige of our weekness because of inflamatory gas prices that cause inflamatory interest hikes and cause inflamatory food hikes is this all right ? Theft in america is only caused by hikes in the world wide economy. poor countries become rich while americans become poorer ... we give too much and take so little. you need to look at your neighbors and not yourself to see the results of what is becoming of america.

 

[cirderf]

I fully understand the cost of shoplifting
but if thye crime fits then prosecute for the crime committed.
if corporate america exagerates the crime to enhance there own benifits then isn't that another crime on top of one.

I came to this site asking for advise , instead I got nothing but she is guilty and expect the consiquenses.... unfortunately you all decide to take this personal.
my wife committed a mistimeneor , I stand by that..... We will work through that.... you all here have her as commiting a felony........


unfortunately with the help with this web site I myself not in anyway involved with this says ........ If my wife is convicted do to assholes that want to keep there business alive want to persue the lives of a family that donates to community , volinteer at local elemtary schools for training, Non paid EMT status rescuing lives from children to elders
then everything that has been work for in our lives is meaningless. My wife will serve 10 years I will serve destiny insurance will cover the rest

 

[CdwJava]

I would be amazed if she is ultimately convicted or pleads to a felony that will include prison time. Generally, these are plead to MAYBE a short county stay, but usually probation with fines and restitution.

In addition, under CA law the merchant will be able to request up to $500 as an assessment above and beyond the fines and restitution. They will not - and CAN NOT - sue her for up to "$500k" as you indicated previously. That's horse patooey, and simply would not happen.

If she is convicted, it will be because of the crime she committed, not because the managers and owners of an American based company decided they can make some money on her (which, by the way, they won't).

Also, please cite a source for your $39 to $99 billion cost due to foreign lawsuits ... not that this has ANYTHING to do with foreign lawsuits.

Retailers lose more than $20 billion annually due to theft ... if you do a search for yourself, you will find the numbers.

- Carl

 

[Michael Wechsler]

I sympathize with the original poster. This is a tough place to be and I know you want to minimize the damage for a "lesson learned." Unfortunately nobody is going to allow you to go on fishing expeditions and then do psychological evaluations, talk about medications, etc. Let me ask you this - what did the family member say to stealing the items?

Perhaps you could plead this down to a misdemeanor for a first time offense. It will be very difficult to challenge the store if the proof is on the tapes, clear for everyone to see. What would your challenge be - temporary insanity? I find it best to use the "reverse role test" where I'd ask you whether you'd even give a neighbor the time of day if they stole an object from you and, when caught, they claimed temporary insanity. I doubt you'd believe such an excuse and would tell them to just admit it instead of making the problem worse.

I've got a friend who has a store in a well known mall and they deal with huge amounts of fraud every day. You cannot imagine how often it occurs and the lengths people are willing to go in order to perpetrate such a crime. But the point here is that the store owner is mad. It happens too often to them to overlook. Everyone here is sorry for your family member but this is a hard lesson that has to be learned. Since it's a first time, the family member might receive something other than a felony on their record. You may want to spend your money on a criminal lawyer instead of wasting it on defenses that will get you nowhere. I'm sorry to hear about the situation and best of luck to you and the family member.

 

[cirderf]

Well i thank all who has replied.
well a settlement has been placed with expectations of this site was considered.
As follows is what has happened in this case.
1) Public defender no longer taking any cases... Must take a bar qulified assistant.
2) Charges were added from felony burgurly to 1 count shoplifting in excess of 400 dollars and felony burgarly.
So result to above is.. settlement for misdemeanor burglary, But with the following results pending.

a) probation for 3 years with all settlements from plaintiff accepted.

Suit request from plaintiff as follows.
1) suit 1 ..... $ 7,400 for security servailance diversion from other shoplifters.
2) suit 2 ...... $ 5,300 for merchandise replacement due to unsailable items
3) suit 3 ..... $6,045 for loss of employee concentracion of sales within the floor
4) suit 4 ....$ 12,000 accounting mis direct due to loss of property.

All suits are filed independently to keep the suits in small claims court in my belief.

unfortunatly they will probably win 3 of 4 of these suits from all experts that I have spoken too.

so those of you who believe that this crap isn't about money then here I am first hand... none of you can defend me ..... so you are about fuul of crap in your profession...

Defense attornies are full of crap .... they are after your money.
The best thing in life is don't do nothing wrong.... We can put a couple of thousand thiefs out of business

 

[cirderf]

Well a little more has come out of this case.
Under probation now regular drug testing is required.
Although the following prescriptions are written under 2 seperate doctors care,
1 from accident attorney's doctor and the other from kaiser's doctors
she is currently taking the following for pain and suffering in life.
1) Baclofen
2) Gabapentin
3) Amitriptyline
4) Morphene
5) Methadone
The current probation officer has determined that the combination of these drugs constitute a drug addiction and aren't required to live normal life.
Unless a accreditted doctor deemed by the state of california can verify that all of these drugs are neccessary then these drugs cannot be consumed within the probationary period.
I'm sorry but when in custody myu wife was taken to the emergency facility 4 seperate occasion for either withdrawal symptoms or for untolerable pain conditions.
I have now been billed by my insurance company ( Kaiser ) for full emergency bills because visitation conditions were made by hte state when urgency clinics were in normal operating hours.
The wife was told by the officers and hospital staff that charges accruing during this custody was on the behalf of the county and not my insurance carrier during the paperwork process.

I now have 4 emergency room visits and 2 taxi rides to the emergency room being charged to me and my wife totalling over $18,000.
I have probation officers deeming what is tolerable pain
I now have the sheriffs department harrassing my residence with any violations they can find.
I have threatened the city that maybe I should just pack my bags and leave but with that threat I found a new lean on my home at $182,000 by the state of california (just about all of my equity )

So tell me "what is fair"
So tell me " do we any longer have rights"
So tell me "what is it going to take to cerrect this" ( Most lawyers charge 50% of the settlerment )
Your all experts here , What is legal , What is moral, What is justice

 

[raskalnikov]

Morphine and Methadone?

. . . . .

And you say the probation officer needs a doctor's note? OF COURSE! She shouldn't be able to be on all these medications with a doctor's knowledge!


and how did this happen:

2) suit 2 ...... $ 5,300 for merchandise replacement due to unsailable items


It seems there are many details missing. . .

 

[cirderf]

Methadone...... Comanly given to drug addicts for withdrawal in rehab
bariatric patient involved in auto accident .....just highly unlikely to attorneys
especially 2 weeks after corrective surgery ...to attorneys just not possible.

Yes everything is missing to you law students because you don't know human nature
you only know what will bring you the income that will bring you a comfortable life.

to protect me from what the state will take from me is what you will receive in the bills I must pay to you afterwards.

 

[jacksgal]

If your unhappy with the answers you get here then contact a "real" Attorney and not rely on message boards!

 

[raskalnikov]

. . .

SO this person is simulataneously on Methadone (and yah, I know one method is for heroin addiction. . . some idiotically use it for pain ) and on MORPHINE(opiate). . . which would be the thing she should no longer be taking, as she is on Methadone!

There's really no reason to lie here, because by doing so much of the advice you recieve won't be helpful.

But you seem to be someone that blames everyone else for your problems. How's that working for you?

 

[cirderf]

Unfortunately not to your satisfaction I am not looking to blame anyone.
A mistake was made and all I was looking for was insight or suggestions outside of what her current attorneys are doing for her. ( or should I say for themselves ) along with the courts and their activities.

Once again, As for her shoplifting, that was not a normal lifestyle and was always her most against moralities. She settled outside of any trials as she believes it is only a waste of taxpayers dollars to try and procede against something she had done wrong.
But it was my concern that she was taken advantaged of again.
The court was no longer offering a puplic defender they said that they were all booked up. So in the place of a public defender an outside Bar qualified defender was offered.
A plea deal was made and the previous metioned deal was made to accept misdemeanor burglary in exchange for Cal trans work for a portion of the prison sentence and community service for the fines that were charged. Along with all conditions of the victom of this case fully satisfied financially. 1) Unfortunately the victoms demands were not part of this hearing and that happens in a seperate case. 2) the paperwork that was signed for the fee of $50 for filing for a puplic defender was altered while she was serving her time when she received all of her documents back upon release the $50 was crossed out and replaced with in pen " $150 plus legal fees due in full upon request of ####### defedence agency. To be mailed to residence ").

Once again I only write today because another knife has been placed in my wifes back.
School started today. My wife has always been a volanteer teacher's assistant.
Alway been a prominant member of the PTA , volenteering in child testing and child education growth. I have 2 children in elementary and 1 in middle school. Today she was approached and was told she was red flagged by the school district and no longer alowed on any of the schools campuses within the county.
Again a result of not protecting herself and just trying to keep things simple.

Now a little history of the drugs involved here since now it appears we have someone accusing of heroin usage.

1) my wife is a bariatrics patient, surgeory in 2004.
2) lost over 200lbs in 1 year
3) surgeory for excessive skin removal for health reasons was granted by HMO ( Minor tummy tuck) Surgeory occured Dec 18, 2006
4) Was invovled in an auto accident where she was T-Boned by an older mercedes on Jan 02 2008. causing what seemed to be minor injuries ( Ex. light neck pain and slight cuccosion )
5) Insurance company of other driver agreed to repair vehicle for 6,000 and work on injuries later. But when repairshop found that body was slightly twisted and requested additional moneys for repair the other driver's insurance company declined.
6) aquired a highly advertised and accredited legal group to handle the claim
a) So far result has been $4,500 for the vehicle being totaled cash has been received
b) Medical still in suit.
7) So far all of the outside medical help has been cancelled by the law firm and now passed back to my HMO. Even though now my wife has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia diagnosed 2 months after the accident. ( it cant be decided if caused by the accident or by the surgeory so the law firm is no longer persuing)
8) between the law firms doctors and My HMO now my wife is stuck with a probable life long disease that cant be proved on cause. My HMO is blaming it on the accident so prescriptions subsidy will expire on Jan 1 2009 but at the same time the suit has reached the max amount given by the insurance laws of 35,000 so no longer persuing.
The law firm has asked for a signature to close the claim with X amount of dollars to the HMO , X amount of dollars to the medical clinics involved in the case and X amount of dollars for their fees.... This time nothing has been signed because the victom here "My wife" Gets nothing, But a life time of full price prescriptions to be paid by us.

So I appologize to any I have offended here , And I am sorry for any mis-perceptions that may have been aquired through my lack of disclosing my wifes medical conditions and past attorney perceptions.
Is why I asked if medical prescriptions could cause the events that happened in the beginning of this post.

Methadone was given for pain but only to keep the other medications such as sleep , Pain, alertness and withdrawel symptoms from happening between medication types.

 

[raskalnikov]

Thanks for the explanation. From what you said earlier, I was rather confused. This clarification helps. I hope things work out, sounds like Kohl's is going overboard and is looking for blood.