Shoplifting, Larceny, Robbery, Theft Caught with store product

[Nikkigreen]

Today I was at Jc penny's with my 3 kids. I was having a bad day, one child knocked down a bunch of shelf I had my sweater and two shirts and a pair of shoes in my hands so I shoved everything in my bag before my child was hurt. I was angry and left the store. I was stopped once I was outside the store and was asked to come back in. I was taken back to an office. I did do what they said I did leave with un payed stuff I said I would pay for it but they wouldn't let me they said it was to late. What do I do? They did call the cops but they couldn't come. I told them my story and that what they thought it was. I have never been in trouble before. I am very scared I don't want to be in trouble. And this happened in kitsap county in Washington. Please help me out.

 

[shrinkmaster]

JCP (you should no thave named store) has a 100% prosecution policy. You left store with unpaid for merchandose thats theft! Problemis everyone says "Oh I forgot" even if true you wont be believed and that defense wont wash in court. You to talk to an Attorney about your options like diversion. By the way if you werent already aware you can also expect a letter from a law firm with a demand from money its called "Civil Demand" and you can read more on it here http://www.thelaw.com/guide/lawsuit/civil-recovery-demand-letters-for-shoplifting/

 

[mightymoose]

Nikki- if things were honestly as you say, and if your departure from the store was prompt, you might have enough in circumstance to beat this. You should speak with a local attorney before you appear in court or pay any demand.
Theft requires intent, and although intent is assumed in certain circumstances (in this case as soon as you concealed the items in the bag) intent can always be argued. This happened in a section of the store which likely captured the entire event on camera.
Do we have a thief sneaking out property or do we have an angry mother dealing with a clumsy child and absentmindedly walked out the door with unpaid items?
There is a difference.

 

[shrinkmaster]

That might be ill advised. You cannot prove you mistakenly took items. However it can be proved you left store with unpaid for merchandise. No jury or Judge can read your thoughts during that day and DA will surely bring that up. The cost to fight this charge will cost you thousands in Attorney fees and if found guilty you have those fees plus fines etc from courts. In addition any plea options will be gone and you could face the max in penalties. If that wasnt enough your Mothering will come into question as you comitted a crime with your children present. One might even suggest you used then as part of your crime. I am not saying I see you as a thief (I believe your story) I am being realstic about the situation. Yes you can fight this and yes you might prevail in court but all this is BIG IF. You have much to risk and your decision should not come quick nor reply on anonymous person from random websites. By all means consult an (several in fact) see what these Attorney feel about your case and defense options

 

[shrinkmaster]

Word of advice remove store name and city and county (state is fine) there are retailers who actually have people troll internet for issues that might concern them. I also know of cases where message board post were used to fire, arrest, charge persons, and show up in court. They can also be used as confessions in some cases. I myself (working as a consultant) used a message board to catch and take down a District Loss Prevention manager for wrongdoing. Its not helpful to name store or city or county.

 

[mightymoose]

She doesn't have to prove it was a mistake. The prosecutor has to prove her intent to steal.

If this all happened and she frantically made her way out with three kids in tow she can likely cast plenty of doubt on intent.

If she casually strolled out the store like nothing was wrong then maybe not.

Paying a civil demand out of fear is far more ill advised!

 

[shrinkmaster]

Do you equally advise people you have cited for traffic violation to ignore the fines? There are consequences for not paying think carefully. I dont know about you Moos but I have sat in cases with the "I forgot" defense I have yet to see it work. In fact I see cost the accused much mor ethna plea deal. Yes its unfair and not right but thats our system. You can read more on Civil Demand from this very site here http://www.thelaw.com/guide/lawsuit/civil-recovery-demand-letters-for-shoplifting/

 

[army judge]

Moose's advice was spot on and quite correct.
A civil demand does not amount to a court order.
One still has a few dozen rights left in this country, and due process is one of those rights.
From what I've seen of Moose, he's a no nonsense kind of officer.
If he cites someone, I'll bet he doesn't dispense advice, except to say your signature is not an admission of guilt, only a promise to appear in court and answer to the charges.
Your court date is December 3 at 2:00PM in the 101st District Court, and please read the instructions on the back of the citation. Or, call the court at 555-555-5555. Have a nice day, and please drive safely.

 

[shrinkmaster]

This coming from someone who up until a few months ago was not even aware of Civil demand laws! However let me explain. Yes only a court can "order" you to pay. However if it gets to that point your $200.00 can reach over $1000.00 so again I ask are you a gambler if so thenby all means gamble the law firm wont take you to court. Oh by the way did I also mention they can send a negative report to credit reporting agencies? That will have long term inpact on you and your family. There is also the chance the store may seek the file any criminal charges not filed at time as result of your ignoring Civil Demand. Its your call take the risk or play it safe

 

[army judge]

This coming from someone who up until a few months ago was not even aware of Civil demand laws! However let me explain. Yes only a court can "order" you to pay. However if it gets to that point your $200.00 can reach over $1000.00 so again I ask are you a gambler if so thenby all means gamble the law firm wont take you to court. Oh by the way did I also mention they can send a negative report to credit reporting agencies? That will have long term inpact on you and your family. There is also the chance the store may seek the file any criminal charges not filed at time as result of your ignoring Civil Demand. Its your call take the risk or play it safe

I'm no gambler, nor am I a thief.
Also, as moderators, let's try to respect the professor and keep it civil.
I have never tried to disrespect you or dress you down.
You don't know what I knew or know.


People make choices everyday.
Some choose to pay, some choose to steal.
Some of the thieves get caught.
Those civil demands are useless, just more government intrusion.
The thief gambled when he stole the ham, television set, earrings, or whatever other trinket he or she stole.
It isn't a gamble to avail oneself of due process.
It is a right.


So, the thief takes the legal route.
They lose.
They'll never pay, and they won't go to jail because they did not pay.

Some might pay, when they get the demand letter.
Thieves who fail to pay, nothing will happen to them.
Most probably have two digit credit scores, drug habits, criminal records, and IQs below 70 anyway.
Why would a two or three time convicted felon care about such letters?
Or, a serial, petty thief?
They don't.

Yes, some are smart and rich, but I'll bet they beat it or pay the requested tribute.
The average thief doesn't care.
Heck, they even steal in jail.
Either way, demand letters aren't court orders.
In some circles, those demand letters are referred to as a "legal shakedown".

Civil Penalty Demand Letter- The "Shakedown"

Many large retail chains in Wisconsin will accuse a customer of theft or shoplifting. After the accusation is made, the stores will collect the customer's contact information and turn it over to a law firm that acts much like a collection agency even if the merchandise is recovered and no actual damages are incurred by the store. The law firm will then send a letter to the customer demanding that the customer pay a "civil penalty" authorized under Wisconsin law, Wis. Stat. 943.51.

In a typical case involving an alleged shoplifting incident, the law firm will send a demand letter which states that if a fee, usually $200.00 is not paid within a thirty days, then the retail establishment will begin civil proceeds to collect money damages. The first letter often vaguely implies that paying the requested amount will prevent any further litigation which does not mean that no further criminal or municipal prosecution will take place if they pay the requested amount.

If the initial amount requested is not paid after the first letter, the law firm will send a second letter about a month or so later demanding even more money for unspecified damages from the shoplifting incident. The second letter demands that the higher amount of damages is paid within 10 days. The second letter rarely states how they came up with this amount. This second letter has a more threatening tone and may imply that the sheriff will be notified if you do not pay the requested amount.

Misleading Settlement Letters

The wording of these letters is extremely misleading. If the law firm actually initiated a civil law suit (which is an extremely remote possibility depending on the amount of loss, $10,000 or more makes the matter far more likely), then the law firm could contact the sheriff to have you served with the civil summons and complaint the same way the sheriff's office can be used to serve paperwork in any kind of civil law suit. The wording of the letter (if it makes any mention of the sheriff or law enforcement) is very misleading. Many clients describe the letters as scary and humiliating. That is their intent, to scare you into submission. In some cases, the law firm will contact the individual over the phone demanding payment. A letter from your attorney will put a stop to additional letters or phone calls from the law firm. Note in Wisconsin, they are limited to the value of the stolen item and an additional $300 if the violator was a minor, $500 if the violator was an adult.

They Rarely File a Civil Claim

In Wisconsin merchants rarely, if ever, follows through with this threat in Retail Theft cases. The statute, Wis. Stat. 943.51 allow for actual damages (cost of investigation plus actual cost of the items stolen plus $300 to $500 of exemplary damages, including attorney fees). However, in the typical shoplifting case when the merchandise is recovered at the scene no actual damages occur.

The "Civil Liability" Shakedown

The Wall Street Journal published an article on this phenomenon in February, 2008. The article found that the civil penalty letters sent out in shoplifting, retail theft, or theft cases by a Florida law firm called Palmer, Reifler and Associates, P.A., which mails such letters for various retail chains, keeps between 13% to 30% of the money it collects. The article reports that a partner at the law firm has said that it sends out about 1.2 million such letters a year but follow up by suing fewer than 10 times a year. The Law Office of Michael Ira Asen, P.C. is another such law firm that acts much like a collection company is the Law Offices of Michael Ira Asen, P.C. who is associated with the Zellman Group, LLC, which runs a retail loss "shake down" for numerous retail companies, including some of the largest retailers in the United States, including Kohl's department store (Kohl's Illinois, Inc.). Although the Law Offices of Michael Ira Asen, P.C., send out numerous letters to individuals in Wisconsin demanding payment under Wis. Stat. 943.51, this New York law firm does not appear to have an attorney licensed in the State of Wisconsin to file a lawsuit, or even legally offer to settle such claims. In Wisconsin, Shopko uses Clifford & Raihala, S.C. as local collection counsel. They are a Wisconsin law firm located in Madison. They advertise primarily as a personal injury firm. While they have the legal ability to practice law in Wisconsin, there has not been a lawsuit filed in the State of Wisconsin with Shopko as a plaintiff since 2007, and the one before that was 2001.

Civil Demand Letters Create a Motive for False or Exaggerated Accusations

The huge fees collected by retail establishments can often create an incentive for a loss prevention person at the store to report even questionable shoplifting cases. The fact that civil damages are demanded when the store has suffered no actual damages is often a fact that can be raised at trial and argued to the jury to show the bias or motive on the part of the loss prevention person to exaggerate or spin the facts regarding an incident of theft, shoplifting or retail theft. Some loss prevention officers will tell the person arrested at the time of the arrest that when they receive the letter for payment of the $200.00, they should pay the amount to avoid further liability.

In those cases in which the individual does in fact steal the merchandise, and the merchandise is damaged or no longer saleable, and the retail store has suffered actual damages, which is usually measured by the full purchase price of the merchandise. In the criminal case the prosecutor can ask the court to order restitution, and the Court routinely orders that as restitution.

http://www.mmv-law.com/Practice-Areas/Retail-Theft-Shoplifting.shtml

 

[mightymoose]

Do you equally advise people you have cited for traffic violation to ignore the fines?

The situation is very different, but no, I do not. In fact, it is extremely rare that I even bother with traffic enforcement, but that is beside the point. An offense committed in an officer's presence that a person is cited for is far different than an alleged offense possibly witnessed by a store security guard- at least as far as evidence and testimony are concerned.
However, when people are argumentative, I do advise them of their right to explain their selves to the court, not to me. I don't determine guilt or collect fines.

There are consequences for not paying think carefully.

There are also consequences for paying when you are innocent.

I dont know about you Moos but I have sat in cases with the "I forgot" defense I have yet to see it work. In fact I see cost the accused much mor ethna plea deal.

Yes, that is true, but I bet more often than not the evidence is pretty convincing. In this case the manner and speed that she left the store are significant. Every case is different. If it truly happened as she said then she is not guilty of a crime. Why should she pay a demand?

Yes its unfair and not right but thats our system. You can read more on Civil Demand from this very site here http://www.thelaw.com/guide/lawsuit/civil-recovery-demand-letters-for-shoplifting/

The civil demand is nothing more than a request with no legal weight at all. The civil demand law does not require a person, in any state, to pay the demanded amount. It is merely a tool to keep petty matters out of court. The most unfair thing about civil demand is that innocent people get bullied for money out of an irrational fear of court and legal costs. Granted, a person that knows they actually committed the offense would be wise to pay and avoid court, innocent people should not be persuaded to to do the same instead of letting their accusers prove their guilt in court. Failure to pay the demand and instead assert your right to trial does not automatically mean that fines and legal fees will be imposed. With a lack of evidence and reasonable doubt the accused can walk out of court not owing a dime.

 

[shrinkmaster]

Once again I call to your attention that you yourself did no teven know these laws existed until a several months ago. You said yourself on this very site. Yu have not dealt with this or this issue in general as I have. I know the reasons (sound ones) these laws exist and they do all of us a favor even though collecting admittingly is a problem. Yes these letters carry no force of law. However if the accused lets it get that far will cost far more. I have seen this and spoken with firms who collect these fines which ar legal. You and Moose basically support violation of law civil law but law. A law desinged to help retailers so us and retail staff and employees dont pay the price. The link I provided has useful info and if not correct would Lawprofessor place it on his site? In general i tend to agree with most of your post (except this subject) even though I find you abusive to users and know for a fact you have chased at least one member away because of this. OP has the choice to risk previously mentioned consequences by ignoring letter or paying fine and let it go. i am sorry Op finds herself in this as it seems it was an accident. However if I let go every shoplifter who said they walked out by mistake go I would never stop anyone and theft would continue. Its said yes but it what it is.

 

[army judge]

In the end, every criminal defendant has the right to a trial and due process.
Civil lawsuits are replete with due process and its protections.
Civil demand letters allow people to be bullied.
Again, I ask you to keep it civil.
I don't care whether you agree with me or not.
I'm not running for office, or trying to be popular.

 

[mightymoose]

You and Moose basically support violation of law civil law but law

Completely false. The civil demand law carries no obligation or duty. Failure to pay the demand is not a violation of any kind. It is simply a refusal of a request, whether reasonable or not.

 

[mightymoose]

However if I let go every shoplifter who said they walked out by mistake go I would never stop anyone and theft would continue. Its said yes but it what it is.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that security personnel should not do their jobs or that the demand letter should not be sent. The only point being made is that the alleged thief has no obligation to pay any demand that is made, whether they are guilty or not, and has a right to trial. Some of the accused would likely be wise to pay while others would be wise to defend.

 

[CdwJava]

Today I was at Jc penny's with my 3 kids. I was having a bad day, one child knocked down a bunch of shelf I had my sweater and two shirts and a pair of shoes in my hands so I shoved everything in my bag before my child was hurt. I was angry and left the store. I was stopped once I was outside the store and was asked to come back in. I was taken back to an office. I did do what they said I did leave with un payed stuff I said I would pay for it but they wouldn't let me they said it was to late. What do I do? They did call the cops but they couldn't come. I told them my story and that what they thought it was. I have never been in trouble before. I am very scared I don't want to be in trouble. And this happened in kitsap county in Washington. Please help me out.

You may or may not be charged. Until you hear from the police (for a statement), the DA or the court (via summons or warrant), you do not have to act on anything. If you are charged, you have the right to remain silent should you choose. You might consider providing your side again to the police if they ask. But, if you engage legal counsel, you may be advised against that. Unfortunately for you, you have already provided an admission of sorts to store staff and that admission can be used against you in court.

It is also likely that there exists video of your actions. If the video does not support your contention of an unruly child and obvious distraction, then your explanation will fall flat and the intent can be implied.

Yes, the state has to show intent. But, they do not have to have it in black and white with you saying you intended to steal - it can be shown/implied through your actions.

If the police are not involved, you may be asked to pay a civil demand. Failure to pay a civil demand can result in the matter going to collections. If you signed any documents before you were released, it is very likely that you also signed a document acknowledging that you will take care of any future civil demand. If you did sign such a document, it makes the claim that much easier to make. Understand that if you fail to pay the demand and it goes to collections, you can add another $500 or so on top of the original amount (which is likely to be less).

You can make all the choices you want, just understand that those choices can have consequences.

 

[Nikkigreen]

I am so confused right now. I think I left a paper in the lp office. I don't remember what was said to my due to shock. What do I do? Do I call them and ask. I'm pretty sure they call the cops but they never came. What does that mean? I haven't been able to sleep or eat. I have a special boy who keeps me up most night. And doing what I did I wasn't in my right mind! I try not to take him out much but I need to return something to the gap so by the time we got to this store I was wiped out. So what do I do

 

[mightymoose]

Nikki- do nothing. If you are lucky you will never hear anything more. You might, in a few weeks, receive a letter from the store or an attorney requesting that you pay them a few hundred dollars. You have no obligation at all to make the payment. If you do receive one of these letters you should have a quick meeting with a local attorney to determine whether to pay or submit a response to the store.
If it happened accidentally as you say then you did not commit a crime and you should pay nothing. Let the attorney assess your situation and guide you. The first meeting will cost very little if it is not free.

 

[shrinkmaster]

You may choose to ignore the Civil Demand letter yes. However if you do so you could provoke other actions far more severe. Keep in mind Civil Demand is state law and enforceable via court action. Its your choice to pay or not and their choice to take action or not. Do you feel lucky?