Consumer Law, Warranties Is this taekwondo - karate contract voidable?

[army judge]

I'm sorry, the back side of the contract will not upload. "File too large"

First, start by reading what others say about MSI =
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Ripoff Report | member services inc Search of Complaints & Reviews
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Member Solutions Hatboro
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Continue our reading and edification about the entity with which you're doing business =
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Ripoff Report | member solutions Search of Complaints & Reviews
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You are NOT alone.
You also have a valid remedy, I'll reveal that remedy to you, but don't discuss it with MSI.
As your reading confirmed, you are doing business with a scammer.
Is the Dojo owner a scammer, too.
That doesn't matter yet, but he's forcing you to do business with a scammer.

By law, all retail installment contracts must include certain items, and must be completed in full.

The contract you posted has one glaring problem, and a couple more subtle issues.

The retail installment agreement you signed is to run for three years.
The "agreement" fails to show your monthly payment amount.
Furthermore, you are obtaining services from a local Dojo, but you're paying MSI.

The agreement lacks valid signature lines and dates for BOTH seller and buyer.
It fails to disclose interest rate and terms, even if there are no interest charges.

In short, you may NOT have a contract because the agreement you signed lacks legal sufficiency under WV and federal law to that which it purports to be.

I suggest you take ALL documents related to your alleged purchase to a lawyer or two for an evaluation of the documents, transactions, entanglements, obligations, and alleged agreement pursuant to WV state laws and applicable federal laws on such consumer transactions.

One other point, the alleged retail installment purchase contract fails to denote what it is you are to receive for the monthly payments you dispense without mention of those payment amounts.

In contract terms, everything the parties agree to must be contained within the contract, or an addendum thereto.

Your "contract" isn't a legal contract because it fails to achieve the "legal" definition of a contract.
It also fails to properly disclose what the law mandates insofar as retail purchase agreements, and was never agreed to between you and the Dojo.

MSI is not a party to your contract.
In fact, MSI owes you no duty, although it may possess such duty to the Dojo.
You are not a party to any contract between the Dojo and MSI.

At this point, its my legal opinion that what you've isn't a contract for the reasons noted above.

 

[army judge]

I have modified the limits so you can upload the attachment. Coincidentally I believe that I have seen this contract before. The back of the contract may help but I'll need to review both sides. I'll explain after taking a quick look.

I don't think the "contract" is valid for failure to meet the definition of a contract.

 

[Burns1014]

I just want to be clear, his school is located in VIRGINIA (not West Virginia). Coincidentally, I am located in West Virginia. With that clarification, is your opinion still the same?

 

[army judge]

I just want to be clear, his school is located in VIRGINIA (not West Virginia). Coincidentally, I am located in West Virginia. With that clarification, is your opinion still the same?

Yes, the requirement for any contracts are generally the same nationwide.
Some states have a broader, maybe more restrictive terms, but none allow any contract to lack the things I've noted.

However, seek a proper legal opinion from a WV licensed attorney.
VA and WV differ little as to what comprises a valid retail purchase installment contract.

That said, federal law speaks more completely in most cases than does the various states law.

I haven't addressed that, but if necessary, it can also be cited in state court to buttress your position.


By the way, did the Dojo owner provide you with a contract detailing what he'll provide in return for your monthly payments?

So far, all I've seen is a document appearing to represent MSI as having the ability to collect funds on behalf of the Dojo.

I see nothing of the required financial disclosures required by state and federal laws.

 

[Burns1014]

Yes, the requirement for any contracts are generally the same nationwide.
Some states have a broader, maybe more restrictive terms, but none allow any contract to lack the things I've noted.

However, seek a proper legal opinion from a WV licensed attorney.
VA and WV differ little as to what comprises a valid retail purchase installment contract.

By the way, did the Dojo owner provide you with a contract detailing what he'll provide in return for your monthly payments?

So far, all I've seen is a document appearing to represent MSI as having the ability to collect funds on behalf of the Dojo.

No, this contract is the only thing I was given, besides a bogus "scholarship" powerpoint that was one of his contract selling points.

I think that's his MO - withholding. You have to ask for everything...and when you don't know anything about TKD, there's a great deal of things you don't even know that you should ask for, until you're knee deep in and realize you have no idea what's going on. I didn't even know that part of the belt testing requirements included curriculum that you would only be privy to if you purchased HIS book for $140. If you didn't purchase the book, you didn't learn the curriculum...but for the required belt fee, you still got your belt....

 

[army judge]

No, this contract is the only thing I was given, besides a bogus "scholarship" powerpoint that was one of his contract selling points.

I think that's his MO - withholding. You have to ask for everything...and when you don't know anything about TKD, there's a great deal of things you don't even know that you should ask for, until you're knee deep in and realize you have no idea what's going on. I didn't even know that part of the belt testing requirements included curriculum that you would only be privy to if you purchased HIS book for $140. If you didn't purchase the book, you didn't learn the curriculum...but for the required belt fee, you still got your belt....

I suggest you start by discussing the matter with a couple local lawyers.

VA also has a very effective consumer protection agency and AG:
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Attorney General of Virginia
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WV also maintains similar agencies:
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Consumer Protection

 

[Burns1014]

In addition, what state is the school located?

Your posts have been so helpful - and the only reason I joined this site. While I very much appreciate "army judge's" insight and suggestions, I really am looking forward to your thoughts. Have you had an opportunity to review my contract?

 

[Burns1014]

I've taken your advice "army judge" and am meeting with an attorney on Friday. Thank you very much for your help and I'll be sure to let everyone know how all this plays out, as it seems to be a recurring theme. I promise when this is done, I'm going to make it my personal mission to get the word out about these schools.

In the meantime, I was putting together all of my paperwork for the attorney and noticed our "promotion certificates" are issued by the "Universal Martial Arts Federation"...our SGM is listed on the certificate as President and Instructor. I cannot find a record of this organization ANYWHERE. Anyone ever heard of it?? Uploading a copy for your reference.

Also, question for Mr. Wechsler. In your TKD experience, is it customary to return your old belt to the Master, before he will give you your new belt? I thought belts were symbolic of your hard work and was quite surprised that he made us give our old belts back to him, before he would give us our new belts. I've never heard of that happening.

 

[Michael Wechsler]

A couple of things. In several instances companies like the one you describe are the front for the martial arts school not wanting to do the dirty work of debt collection. Unfortunately some can be absolutely ruthless and unreasonable because they really don't care about the "customer" because that debtor is not their customer. However the school may have and retain the power to terminate agreements because otherwise these bill collectors can completely ruin their reputation. I've seen a contract which would suggest that this is an avenue you may want to take with the Master of the martial arts school. You may want to let him know that you intend to hold him responsible for the bad acts of the school's bill collection. And it really harms them if you need to take your experience to social media, such as Facebook pages and, even worse, Yelp or other review sites which the establishment has no control. On Facebook the page owner has more power to delete negative comments.

Martial Arts Belts
I've studied Judo, Karate and Taekwondo. I've received colored belts in all three, received several promotions for Karate and obviously all colors and several Dan / black belts in Taekwondo. I've never had to return a belt nor would it be intuitive to do so. As most martial artists know, washing your belt too often will make it very difficult to manage. Nor should it need regular washing. And it's also a very person object. Would anyone be asked to return a uniform they just bought if they purchased another? I'd question whether the belts I received were used and why this is a policy. Anyone can buy a belt and get it embroidered.

Martial Arts Federations, Organizations
Unfortunately many times these martial arts / Karate / Taekwondo / Tang Soo Do organizations or federations are smoke and mirrors. If you look closely it is a master of some level who has created another very official sounding organization for the purpose of making membership sound as if it is part of a global membership of thousands. In reality it may just be that school and its member franchises. The WTF and the Kukkiwon are the real deal. I'm not saying they don't have their issues but if you're registered with the Kukkiwon then you should have more recognition elsewhere because most bona fide schools are registered with the most well known Taekwondo school in South Korea, where the Taekwondo martial art was born and cultivated.

I have never heard of the Universal Martial Arts Federation although I can find it listed in old advertisements in Martial Arts or Black Belt Magazine. I've also noticed another incorporation that appears to have taken place in the same town several years after I achieved my black belt in Taekwondo. I don't know what to believe but here is a Google Maps photo of the address on file. I don't see it anywhere and it may be an office in one of these unmarked structures. There is another organization with the same name incorporated in Florida as a non-profit - which the one above probably associated with your school is a for profit.

Reviewing one of the Master's franchise martial arts schools, I see that he is the founder of this federation. So it appears my guess was good.

Supreme Grand Master in Martial Arts / Taekwondo
I've never heard such designations until recently, such as "10th Dan Black Belt" which is usually a posthumous honor from my understanding. To me this sounds more like marketing. I can see what you're referring to when you say "the real deal" and have no doubt that the founder of the school is really a true master. That said, it is sad that many have let the business side be run by others who are usually franchisees. I don't know if you've actually spoken to the Master himself and I'll review your notes. I suspect you may have spoken to the school / franchisee's master. Regardless of whom it was, this is very disappointing.

I'll post more shortly. But consider your leverage. Hearing stories like these make me so unhappy.

 

[Burns1014]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed response. It is greatly appreciated.

In response, I do believe that "SGM" had the power to terminate our agreement and I did exchange many respectful, but brutally honest emails with him and his every reply was "come to the school, we'll talk". After I realized I'd been taken for a fool, I was not comfortable meeting with him without an attorney present, as I am a sucker under pressure and he knows it.

He does not have a Facebook page, but I noticed on YellowPages.com, Yelp, Google, etc., he has no reviews posted as of yet -- and I would very much like to post a review... more on that in a minute.

Belts - My understanding from research on my own, was that your belt IS very personal and I really had a hard time giving him back the belts I paid for and worked for. Our white belts (that we had to test for and pay for two weeks in), were stiff and starched, stitching in place and properly sized for the uniforms I purchased. After the white belts, we were given used belts...broken stitching, faded and pliable. My son (36" tall at the time) was given an adult size 4, so torn up I gave it back and asked for a new one.

Martial Arts Federations, Organizations - This SGM is associated with many, many entities; most of which I do not recognize or can find any record of. However, he uses the WTF/Kukkiwon logo on most everything he uses for advertisement, so I assumed he would not be allowed to do that, if he was not legit. Does WTF/Kukkiwon monitor or hold to SOME standard, the schools that use their logo? I would assume that if a WTF/Kukkiwon allowed a school to use their logo, then that school would be held to WTF/Kukkiwon standards of testing. Is that wrong?

I looked at the Google Maps photo of the address you listed. Not familiar to me and as far as I can tell, he has not been in Florida ever. He has other schools, but the only schools still in operation are in Wisconsin - he does travel there for black belt testing. There is a listing for a former establishment or two, now defunct, in northern Virginia - and one in operation that may be owned by a relative of his.

Supreme Grand Master in Martial Arts/Taekwondo - I have actually spoken to him, the owner, the founder, the legend, the man.... at every turn, every concern....all to no avail. I don't like to call anyone a "fraud", although that's how I ultimately feel about him. Maybe it's better to say he is a disappointing, watered down version of his former self. I feel, as an enthusiastic newcomer to TKD, I had (and still have) more respect for the art, than he. While most students were dropped off, pulling wrinkled, dirty doboks out of their book bags, I was painstakingly washing, ironing and fitting my kids into their carseats w/o wrinkling their uniforms before every class- for nothing.

I retained an attorney this past Friday, with the intention of going after SGM and MSI full throttle, but that trajectory changed the day before my meeting with her. Firstly, my husband did not receive the monster annual bonus we were expecting and secondly, I received notice by mail, that my account had been referred to third party collections.

The way my attorney explained it, this is now between me and the third party collections company (to the tune of $6,500) and SGM is out of the picture... UNLESS I want to file a civil suit, which she is willing to do, but cautioned that it would be very time/energy intensive and financially costly, if things didn't go my way. She is of the opinion that he relies on these practices for steady income and the fact that he provides NOTHING in writing covers him for most everything. I feel she is right, but that doesn't mean I'm any less on fire about it.

She also warned that fraud is difficult to prove in VA, but defamation is not. Can I at least post "my opinion" on the various review sites (Yelp, Yellow Pages, Google, etc), without fear of repercussion?

As well, you mentioned whether or not I had had conversations with SGM, before it got to this point. I would love to forward my emails with SGM to you. I think they'd blow your mind. If you're interested, give me a block of time, at a future date and open your link for direct messaging to you. I'd be happy to forward to you for review. Sadly, I do not have the resources to fight this and I hate that I have no recourse. He will continue business as usual, ruining the credit of mothers' just trying to foster a passion for their kids, with a martial art that is/was widely respected for many, many years.

 

[Michael Wechsler]

Belts - My understanding from research on my own, was that your belt IS very personal and I really had a hard time giving him back the belts I paid for and worked for. Our white belts (that we had to test for and pay for two weeks in), were stiff and starched, stitching in place and properly sized for the uniforms I purchased. After the white belts, we were given used belts...broken stitching, faded and pliable. My son (36" tall at the time) was given an adult size 4, so torn up I gave it back and asked for a new one.

I'll respond to the rest but this one has me incredulous. Used martial arts belts? You can buy a quality belt for well under $20 and given the cost of promotion tests, which I'm confident you were charged, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever not to have brand new karate / taekwondo / martial arts belts.

 

[Michael Wechsler]

I'll respond in greater detail later. Posting your honest, accurate opinion of facts is not actionable. There is no defamation claim without a false statement. The mistake many make is greatly exaggerating claims to the point where they depart from opinion and move towards a false statement.

Based upon some of the practices you've mentioned, that alone would probably be devastating to the reputation of the school. What would their defense be in court? The facts are true but they don't like others to find out about the truth and expect the same experience you've had? I'm still in shock that this martial arts school / dojang hands out used belts upon belt promotion and requires students to give back prior belts. I've never heard of such a ridiculous practice. The only time I have seen this occur is when students willingly give their old belts to the school so that they can be used by others who have forgotten their belt at home.

The Florida address was just an example of how many of these martial arts federations and organizations exist. I'm quite sure I found the school, located in Virginia with what appears to be franchises or sister schools in Wisconsin and a possible connection with Indiana.

Small Claims Court is usually a good remedy, especially if there is a mutual agreement to be heard in front of an arbitrator - at least from my experience here in New York City. I have heard of similar experiences for wronged persons and sometimes splitting the baby in the fashion of King Solomon when they can find justification for doing such. The contract is open ended and I was able to find a hole here and there with regard to a client. In your case you might be able to make a case of fraudulent misrepresentation and then testimony will create a decision based upon credibility. It's an informal court and they aren't expecting laypersons and novices to argue legal theory. And after hearing about paid belting ceremonies which resulted in used belts being awarded, I doubt any judge or arbitrator will be amused. I'll elaborate more upon this later. You may not recover what you hoped but sometimes it can provide tremendous satisfaction later and leverage in getting what you want even though it may not be perfect. Sorry to hear about your experience.

 

[Burns1014]

I'll respond to the rest but this one has me incredulous. Used martial arts belts? You can buy a quality belt for well under $20 and given the cost of promotion tests, which I'm confident you were charged, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever not to have brand new karate / taekwondo / martial arts belts.

When I think back on all the small things SGM did that I thought odd, I realize he has taken "miserly" to a whole other level. For example, when he ceremoniously gave us our white belt testing forms (to take home and fill out), I brought them back to him with a check, in the same envelope he gave them to me in. He asked me for the envelope back. The next belt - same envelope. We traded that same envelope back and forth all the way from white belt to purple. I thought he was simply being earth friendly.

When I asked him to send me the "necessary paperwork" to cancel our contract, I actually considered he may not do so, because he didn't want to spend the cost of a stamp.

In hindsight, considering what I've been through with him, I'm not at all surprised he reissues old belts. He literally has zero overhead. Everything is profit... and then some (like the WTF registration I was required to pay). I just wanted to hear from another TKD student that this was not normal practice, because it certainly felt wrong.

 

[Burns1014]

Posting your honest, accurate opinion of facts is not actionable. There is no defamation claim without a false statement.

I'm quite sure I found the school, located in Virginia with what appears to be franchises or sister schools in Wisconsin and a possible connection with Indiana.

Small Claims Court is usually a good remedy, especially if there is a mutual agreement to be heard in front of an arbitrator - at least from my experience here in New York City. In your case you might be able to make a case of fraudulent misrepresentation and then testimony will create a decision based upon credibility.

You may not recover what you hoped but sometimes it can provide tremendous satisfaction later and leverage in getting what you want even though it may not be perfect.

Thank you. I'll get to work immediately on some thoughtful reviews, as I believe that is my only recourse.

This may be hugely inappropriate, but seeing as how I have nothing to hide - just google "black belt academies winchester va". There are numerous business listings, but I'm confident you're already on the right track...

Once I get this issue of collections settled, I will consider small claims court. I would assume that if SGM does spend any money, it would likely be on attorneys. This can't possibly be his first rodeo. On the issue of credibility in small claims court - he's got his name out there everywhere - seemingly very respectable, very seasoned. I'm just a stay at home mom, trying to get the best education for my kids. I have no old belts for proof---because he requires that they be returned.... I literally have nothing except a generic credit card receipt for the $1,000+ up front fees, a contract, a bogus "scholarship" paper and our uniforms/purple belts. What would you do?

I am not looking to recover anything. I would like to get out of this collections/contract situation and I'll cross that bridge as I get there, but I do feel compelled to do what I am able; to get the word out about these schools BEFORE a contract is signed by another well intentioned, unassuming mom and/or dad. Personally, I'm chalking this up to a very expensive and disappointing lesson learned. We'll choose our next school by word-of-mouth, from someone we trust and NOT internet research.

 

[Michael Wechsler]

In hindsight, considering what I've been through with him, I'm not at all surprised he reissues old belts. He literally has zero overhead. Everything is profit... and then some (like the WTF registration I was required to pay). I just wanted to hear from another TKD student that this was not normal practice, because it certainly felt wrong.

The belting practice is absurd and embarrassing. The WTF registration you paid seems to be fraud. If you were told that it was the fee for the WTF registration, that is what it was supposed to be earmarked to pay. That could be a separate claim in itself and you may be better off filing multiple claims.

Before you can file a claim you should send demand letters, which is essentially a prerequisite for small claims court - an establishment of a bona fide dispute and an attempt to settle. You may want to send termination letters to both the school and MSI based upon a fraud claim. I'd be furious if I was told to pay a Kukkiwon fee and found out that (a) I was led to believe that I was paying the actual fee charged; and (b) it was never used for the purpose stated.

 

[Michael Wechsler]

Once I get this issue of collections settled, I will consider small claims court. I would assume that if SGM does spend any money, it would likely be on attorneys. This can't possibly be his first rodeo. On the issue of credibility in small claims court - he's got his name out there everywhere - seemingly very respectable, very seasoned. I'm just a stay at home mom, trying to get the best education for my kids. I have no old belts for proof---because he requires that they be returned.... I literally have nothing except a generic credit card receipt for the $1,000+ up front fees, a contract, a bogus "scholarship" paper and our uniforms/purple belts. What would you do?

Credibility is for the judge or jury to decide. Is he going to perjure himself regarding handing out used martial arts belts for Taekwondo promotions? Doubtful. And then there is the Kukkiwon fee - the bogus scholarship paper. Just be organized and all those fluffy honors won't mean anything. It doesn't matter how many black belt academy martial arts schools a master may own and federations they run. Most small claims court justices and arbitrators I've known despise consumer fraud.

I am not looking to recover anything. I would like to get out of this collections/contract situation and I'll cross that bridge as I get there, but I do feel compelled to do what I am able; to get the word out about these schools BEFORE a contract is signed by another well intentioned, unassuming mom and/or dad. Personally, I'm chalking this up to a very expensive and disappointing lesson learned. We'll choose our next school by word-of-mouth, from someone we trust and NOT internet research.

Setting the wheels in motion for court should also put a damper on sending any amounts owed to collections. I already have a copy of the Member Solutions contract with martial arts schools and other clients. Reading the Member Solutions contract should provide you with a great deal of insight as to what the client / martial arts school can do in order to avoid court. The Supreme Grand Master may want to question how much trouble you are worth.

Here's another thought. I was successful once going to the media. Usually they want very sexy stories but sometimes they do have good Samaritan broadcaster who have specialty "on your side" segments. I know you'd prefer the law to help you but, unfortunately when it comes to small time fraud, you may need to resort to some alternative help. I too have felt the same way that I wouldn't want (a) another person to go through what I did; and (b) continue to allow a fraudster to make money from other victims. Obviously I can't speak to what went on at this black belt academy / martial arts school. But you seem to feel strongly and I commend you for going with your good intentions. Let us know if we can help.