Other Criminal Charges & Offenses video camera with audio installed in house is the legal

S

stallional

New Member
Jurisdiction
Michigan
Ok. so i moved in with my ex girlfriend after she had our baby and our agreement was that we were going to raise our son together for the first year. After about 3 months i found out that she had a videocamera with audio in the bedroom. The bedroom is one that I mostly sleep in and she would sleep on the couch. I was not on her lease on the house. I was there for five months everynight with the exception to maybe 5 nights. I did not recieve my mail at her house. Is this legal for her to do? I have seen so many different things online. Most say the video is fine, but the audio is illegal. Also there is a question to weather or not this was considered a private area of the house? I am in Michigan. What are the laws on this?
 
It doesn't sound like anything worth making a fuss about.
This is a camera installed by the tenant in the tenant's own private space.
Had the landlord or any other nonresident installed the camera without the knowledge or consent of occupants it would be an issue.
It's a little bit grey since you moved in and had no knowledge, but it was her home and she is the tenant. Was this camera installed before or after you came along? Is it a baby monitor?
 
stallional said:
Ok. so i moved in with my ex girlfriend after she had our baby and our agreement was that we were going to raise our son together for the first year. After about 3 months i found out that she had a videocamera with audio in the bedroom. The bedroom is one that I mostly sleep in and she would sleep on the couch. I was not on her lease on the house. I was there for five months everynight with the exception to maybe 5 nights. I did not recieve my mail at her house. Is this legal for her to do? I have seen so many different things online. Most say the video is fine, but the audio is illegal. Also there is a question to weather or not this was considered a private area of the house? I am in Michigan. What are the laws on this?
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Unmarried males who believe they are fathers of children conceived with an unmarried woman have zero parental rights.

The male has to go to court and establish paternity.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with how you legalize your paternity, obtain legal visitation, and address the issue of child support.

If you believe a crime has been committed upon your person, you should always take your concerns to the applicable police or sheriff agency.
 
The camera was installed a few months after i moved in. And no, its not a baby monitor. She claims she installed it because she thought i was going through her things. I have no idea why she would think that, there is nothing of her stuff i would care about going through lol. Im not sure how establishing paternity is relevant to my thread but that has been established for a long time. It sounds like some people say its illegal...some say its legal. still no solid answers providing laws of why it is or isnt illegal. What about having audio on the camera? Isnt that eavesdropping?
 
You don't want to see a lawyer until you know for sure its illegal...?? Lets say its illegal why do you want to get her in trouble. cost her money that could be used for the kid. Plus cause you issues with her for sure.
 
Not necessarily try to get in her trouble. we are in the middle of a custody battle. Although there was no crimes, and nothing done wrong while on camera, It shows pretty obviously that she was out to get me. since day one she has threatened to keep my son from me. Im in the process of retaining a lawyer for the custody hearings, but i was hoping to get informed to whether or not this was illegal for her to do. It would never try to take money from her for our son. Anything I ever do will always be in his best interest. Without telling a long story about the history of me and my ex, i simply wanted to get information about the laws regarding setting up a camera in the home.
 
There is not always a clear answer. Sometimes recording is allowed and sometimes it is not.
You likely will need to speak with a Michigan attorney who can fully review the details with you to determine what may apply, if anything.
If it was installed after you moved in to an area that was exclusively yours to use that is one thing, but you described it as her bedroom which is a place she maintains reasonable access to even if she doesn't sleep there.
Also consider that short of an admission on her part there likely is no evidence.
What is you goal by pursuing action against her?
Personally I don't see this getting anywhere. This does not seem to be the sort of situation the statutes are intended for.
 
It was her bedroom because it was her house. I moved in five months ago. I slept in the room 95% of the time. She admitted to me she installed the camera. Yes, she had her things in the room so i understand how she would maintain reasonable access to it. Im not trying to get her in trouble for doing it or try to sue her by any means. im only saying, if it was deemed to be illegal, then that is something I would want to let the judge know at the custody hearing. I believe she installed the camera to see me naked or to eavesdrop on my phone conversations, because alot of the time i would go into the room with my phone. Of course, I can not prove why she installed the camera. Nobody has mentioned if audio is illegal or legal...There are so many things that go into this and the law is not completely clear, although it seems that audio may be illegal while video was legal. Thanks for all your help
 
It is legal for a homeowner to install a camera in their own home, to monitor their own belongings. You know about it. If you don't want to be seen or heard, use a different room to change or use the phone. In a home with a baby, it is going to be extremely easy to explain such a camera as these kinds of systems are extremely common. It would be more surprising if there weren't one somewhere in the house.

This has zero to do with custody rights. Zip. IF paternity is established, the court will order some amount of child support be paid and if reasonable, some amount of visitation and or legal custody. Your relationship shenanigans don't change this.
 
No. I actually didnt know about the camera being installed in the room. And she has said (and i have it recorded) that it was the only camera installed in the house. Thats why i questioned what the camera was actually being used for. My son is almost never in that room with the exception of taking naps or sleeping during the night
 
stallional said:
My son is almost never in that room with the exception of taking naps or sleeping during the night
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That alone, monitoring the child while he sleeps, is a valid reason for installing a camera in the child's room.

Furthermore, it is her home.

I don't see any requirement to give a guest notice about the security arrangements in a person's home.

Now that you know, you might not wish to sleep in her home.

You can simply rent your own apartment, or procure a hotel room nearby in support of your visits with the child.

Most former spouses (or friends) wouldn't have allowed a former spuse (or friend) to stay overnight in their home anyway.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but I don't need to know.
That is YOUR business.

I can state unequivocally that a camera in any room of a home the woman owns (or rents) to monitor her possessions, her child, and her safety (as well as the safety of her guests), is no one's business but hers.

I don't allow guest inside my any of my homes, especially overnight guests.
My home is monitored 24/7/365 with redundancies in mys systems.
I post no notices warning anyone about my security arrangements.

I don't see why your friend would have to inform you about her security arrangements either.

At this point, you can contact law enforcement, or speak with a lawyer that you plan to engage in support of child custody battle.
 
stallional said:
No. I actually didnt know about the camera being installed in the room. And she has said (and i have it recorded) that it was the only camera installed in the house.
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Under Michigan law, any participant in a conversation may record the conversation, (audio and/or video) and it is not considered to be "eavesdropping" under the plain language of MCL 750.539a (2) because, by very definition, a participant to a private conversation who records the same is not considered to be "eavesdropping" because the conversation is not the "discourse of others" under the statute. Michigan case law is very clear on this point. See Sullivan v. Gray, 117 Mich App 476, 481, 324 N.W. 2d 58 (1982); Lewis v. LeGrow, 258 Mich App 175, 185, 670 NW 2d 675 (2003) As the Michigan Court of Appeals in LeGrow recently reaffirmed, "a participant in a private conversation may record it without 'eavesdropping' because the conversation is not the 'discourse of others' " under the statute. Id at 185.

However, when you record a private conversation without another party's knowledge or consent, in Michigan that is "eavesdropping" and it is a felony for which statutory law provides civil remedies.
MCL 750.539c; MCL 750.539d; MCL 750.539h.

One of the relevant portions of the Michigan everdropping statute reads:

750.539d Installation, placement, or use of device for observing, recording, transmitting, photographing or eavesdropping in private place.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not do either of the following:

(a) Install, place, or use in any private place, without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, recording, transmitting, photographing, or eavesdropping upon the sounds or events in that place.

(b) Distribute, disseminate, or transmit for access by any other person a recording, photograph, or visual image the person knows or has reason to know was obtained in violation of this section.

(2) This section does not prohibit security monitoring in a residence if conducted by or at the direction of the owner or principal occupant of that residence unless conducted for a lewd or lascivious purpose.

(3) A person who violates or attempts to violate this section is guilty of a crime as follows:

(a) For a violation or attempted violation of subsection (1)(a):

(i) Except as provided in subparagraph (ii), the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.

(ii) If the person was previously convicted of violating or attempting to violate this section, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.

(b) For a violation or attempted violation of subsection (1)(b), the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.

(4) This section does not prohibit a person from being charged with, convicted of, or punished for any other violation of law committed by that person while violating or attempting to violate subsection (1)(a) or (b).

So for example, if you are tape recording a conversation in Michigan between yourself and your ex-wife on the phone, or anyone else, that is perfectly legal under Michigan law because you are a participant to the conversation, and therefore are not eavesdropping. Alternatively, if you place a tape recorder in your employer's office and record private conversations that you are not a party to, or leave a tape recorder in your ex-wife's bedroom and pick it up later to listen to what occured while you were not there, or if you are simply quietly sitting in a room and not participating in the conversation, then you may be guilty of a felony and can to prison if convicted because you were not a participant in the conversations recorded. It is a fine line that you do not want to cross. As one of my law professors once said, whenever you are talking to someone, expect that they may be recording the conversation because it is their right to do so in Michigan.

I hope that answered your question. Thank you for your question on Home. If you require further representation in a divorce, criminal or civil matter in Michigan, contact our law office at (586) 285-1700 for a free consultation.

PETER A. TORRICE
Canu Torrice Law
Home
(586) 285-1700
 
stallional said:
The camera was installed a few months after i moved in. And no, its not a baby monitor. She claims she installed it because she thought i was going through her things. I have no idea why she would think that, there is nothing of her stuff i would care about going through lol. Im not sure how establishing paternity is relevant to my thread but that has been established for a long time. It sounds like some people say its illegal...some say its legal. still no solid answers providing laws of why it is or isnt illegal. What about having audio on the camera? Isnt that eavesdropping?
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I think he mentioned establishing paternity so that you don't have to live with her and ensure you have court ordered custody so you can see the kid.

Living with an ex for "the kid" is just a bad recipe for disaster. Kids know when parents don't like each other. You should not have moved in with her to "raise the kid."

If you have your paternity legally established I would get visitation in a court order - if it's not - and you should have a child support order if you established your paternity.

If you really want a solid answer go find a lawyer in Michigan who does free consultations and ask them about it. I'd move out asap if I was you. It's not worth all that.
 
"if it was deemed to be illegal, then that is something I would want to let the judge know at the custody hearing." "Your honor you should know that I would be the better parent because she did this illegal thing with a camera." Is that what you're going for?
 
No. It's the point. What did she really put the camera up for? My guess was to eavesdrop on my conversations. Nothing to do with custody but yes. It has been deemed illegal by three attornys
 
stallional said:
It has been deemed illegal by three attornys
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An attorney, of which I am one, can't issue anything more than a written legal opinion.
An attorney's opinion has no force of law, other than it is THAT attorney's legal opinion.

If you act in good faith based upon a written opinion issued to you by YOUR attorney, and your action is later deemed to have been illegal, all the letter will do is act to reduce (not dismiss) any legal hot water that you may have stumbled upon or into.

A judge (of which I am also one), acting in her/his legal capacity as a judge issues an order, that order can be considered force of law.

Let's say Judge Brown issued an order making slavery LEGAL.
Furthermore, Busta read in the order that all you had to do is "capture as many people as you can, and they become your lawful slaves.

Busta gets busy and captures 100 people, and orders them to serve him.

Busta will get busted by acting upon what a reasonable person should have known was an unreasonable order, thereby an illegal order.

Everything has certain limits, mate.

Good luck.
 
stallional said:
No. It's the point. What did she really put the camera up for? My guess was to eavesdrop on my conversations. Nothing to do with custody but yes. It has been deemed illegal by three attornys
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Their opinion doesn't matter. Ultimately a jury would have to agree.
If you have no damages to speak of then there is no point pursuing anything here.
Even if you are right you have nothing to gain.
 

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