I have a question?pls help

[Proserpina]

It's become VERY apparent to me that Dads MUCH better off getting paidfor legal advice from a pro. than dealing with the headache he'd get here. What will probably happen in the next few years is mom will continue messing up and finally get caught putting her child in danger and Dad will easily win custody he should have in the first place...or say if that doesnt happen, which is unlikely, when she's old enough she will pick to live with Dad. If nothing else thankfully this isn't my problem.

Sure, sweetheart, get Dad to pay for the same information he's been given here.

You DO understand, right, that kiddo isn't going to be CHOOSING where she lives at all until she's 18, right?

There's only ONE state in the country which allows a minor to choose at 16 - and it ain't Pennsylvania.

 

[Proserpina]

I assume they didn't do a hair test, which gives a history of drug use going back months? The only way to avoid it is to shave her head.

Please explain how this proves that Mom is endangering the child.

(and trust me, there is more than one way to obtain a hair sample for drug testing....)

The problem here is to treat this as just one piece of the totality of evidence in a custody challenge.

Many think the courts are rigged against dads, but in reality, it is more about attorneys unwilling or lacking the knowledge to truly fight for the father's rights. This is why it is important to learn how to interview and hire the right attorney. It is also important to do as much as possible on your own and not pay the attorney to do it.

OK, the "hiring of the right attorney", I agree with.

Part of the problem with getting your rights knowing what to do to prove your case, and how to remind the judge of their responsibilities. Let me start with the judge.

Always take people with you to court who are not there to testify. Make sure they are sitting where the judge can see them, each equipped with a tablet and pen to take notes. It's best to use a Court Watch Form designed for this purpose.

If the judge is not doing his job, using the info from this form, you can, appeal, and/or get the judge sanctioned and removed from the case. You file a complaint with the State Supreme Court at your state capital.

No. This is NOT how it works. An appeal will ONLY happen if there has been an "error of law", and the Judge will only face sanctions if he's deliberately and knowingly actually acted outside of the law. Now, explain to this poor OP, a layperson, exactly how s/he is meant to discern this?

Start keeping a Daily Journal of all your activities. The most common way to prevent a father from getting his rights through the courts is a false allegation, usually sexual. According to a Missouri Presiding Judge, in a letter to Dear Abby, over 60% of divorcing father are accused of child sexual abuse. Of that, only 4% are found to have any relevance, but there are no penalties for doing so. A daily journal is your number one piece of evidence in court and you can even refer to it while on the stand.

And a journal may not even be acceptable as evidence. I would also love to see the statistics supporting the Missouri judge's claims.

Gather evidence. Check this site below to see if it is illegal to record conversations without the other person knowing. If your state does not have a law either way, than it defaults to the federal ruling which says one person in a conversation must know they are being recorded. You're that one person. In Missouri it is specifically legal, in Kansas there is no mention either way. If you live in two different states, and one has a law against it, than it applies when the call originates from within that state.

NO. This is NOT correct!

You can't just record, you also have to transcribe it into your daily journal.

I can sit and write a million pages of crap about my ex in my daily journal.

Do you expect a judge to believe me without PROOF?

There is not way to list everything you need to know in doing all this and that what we teach at Dads House, which is free to join and all materials are free. We teach you how to prepare for a case, and how to work in a partnership with your attorney, so you kNow all aspects of what's going on. We do not recommend specific attorneys.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

You need to stop hawking your site.

 

[barbie77]

Sure, sweetheart, get Dad to pay for the same information he's been given here.

You DO understand, right, that kiddo isn't going to be CHOOSING where she lives at all until she's 18, right?

There's only ONE state in the country which allows a minor to choose at 16 - and it ain't Pennsylvania.

As far as what Dads been told and read is that she can have a voice on her preferance as early as 12. Which the judge can consider if he chooses. Also once shes old enough to let the courts and others know what she's seen mom do and her voice is heard it will be end of story for mom. At what age would her testimony be considered facts? still not sure of that. I know they wont listen to a 5 year old right now...Mom can't just do bad things all her life and not expect them to catch up to her at some point. Also, I understand doing drugs when shes not around the child "may not affect the childs well being" as far as what the courts think but answer me this how doesn't that put the child in danger when shes high around the child? Yes dad may not be able to prove that shes high around the child but her being tested and comming back with drugs in her system and dad doesn't wouldn't you think there is ugh a LOT bigger chance that she's been high around the child than the father!!! Oh yeah and how bout the witnesses that the dad has that has SEEN her with the child while she's high and while she's getting high and driving. Not just that but wouldn't a person that has drinking and drug problems who always has it in their system act a different way with a child than a person without.

 

[Proserpina]

As far as what Dads been told and read is that she can have a voice on her preferance as early as 12.

Some judges won't even entertain the idea at 12 - in many cases, a 12 year old won't even be asked the question. Many judges will, however, listen to an older teen's preference.

Which the judge can consider if he chooses. Also once shes old enough to let the courts and others know what she's seen mom do and her voice is heard it will be end of story for mom. At what age would her testimony be considered facts?

This is where a therapist would be better - it's never a good idea to put a child on the stand to testify about a parent. Again, many courts just won't allow it at all. If Dad can't prove something without the child testifying, he seriously needs to rethink his case.

(This doesn't even touch on the trauma it puts a child through, or the fact that a child is VERY easily coached to say certain things...)

still not sure of that. I know they wont listen to a 5 year old right now...Mom can't just do bad things all her life and not expect them to catch up to her at some point. Also, I understand doing drugs when shes not around the child "may not affect the childs well being" as far as what the courts think but answer me this how doesn't that put the child in danger when shes high around the child?

If she's high around the child, the child should be calling Daddy or 911 if the child is actually being harmed. Dad can get kiddo a very simple prepaid phone which allows calls to only those two numbers. If that happens, and kiddo calls, Dad can very easily request a wellness check from the local police station (not the emergency number).

Yes dad may not be able to prove that shes high around the child but her being tested and comming back with drugs in her system and dad doesn't wouldn't you think there is ugh a LOT bigger chance that she's been high around the child than the father!!!

That's honestly not enough. She could've smoked a joint last week - she'll still test positive today.

Oh yeah and how bout the witnesses that the dad has that has SEEN her with the child while she's high and while she's getting high and driving. Not just that but wouldn't a person that has drinking and drug problems who always has it in their system act a different way with a child than a person without.

So when these witnesses saw Mom driving high, with the child present, what happened when they called the cops?

 

[barbie77]

good job! I have to say. I've now heard every readon why dads case is absolutley skrewed....Now the only other thing that would be helpful is how dad could work on a better case. But it really, from what you say, looks like the child will always be with mom unless something crazy happens in dads favor. Its really is sad that to obtain custody of your child it seams like you have to prove the other parent is some type of horrible crazy awefull person instead of just the child being better off with the other parent. It should be prove your a better parent not prove the other is completely unfit. This is where the dads get skrewed. Mom takes kid and dad doesnt have any way to get it back without proving she a bad parent. Instead it would make more sense he prove hes a better one.

 

[Proserpina]

good job! I have to say. I've now heard every readon why dads case is absolutley skrewed....Now the only other thing that would be helpful is how dad could work on a better case. But it really, from what you say, looks like the child will always be with mom unless something crazy happens in dads favor. Its really is sad that to obtain custody of your child it seams like you have to prove the other parent is some type of horrible crazy awefull person instead of just the child being better off with the other parent. It should be prove your a better parent not prove the other is completely unfit. This is where the dads get skrewed. Mom takes kid and dad doesnt have any way to get it back without proving she a bad parent. Instead it would make more sense he prove hes a better one.

See here's the thing. BOTH parents are considered to be fit, in the eyes of the law, until proven otherwise.

It's not about who is the better parent - because let's face it, such a designation is often totally subjective (and be honest - you're not an objective observer here, are you? ). Because honestly, the court sees it like this:

Dear Parent B,

By laying down with Parent A, you obviously decided that they were fit enough to be the parent of your child. If you want to change your mind now, you're going to have to convince us - the court - with some compelling evidence as to why that's not the case, or no longer the case. Why should we - the court - remove this child from his/her current residence? Give us some proof why Parent A is no longer fit to be the custodial parent.

Love,

The Court.

(obviously, I completely oversimplified how things go but you get the point, right?)

 

[Proserpina]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...you also didn't answer my question....

 

[barbie77]

sad thing is about the laying down with parent B she lied to dad saying she was on birthcontrol when she wasn't...when mom found out she was pregnant dad tried everything he could to make sure she had the baby. He wanted it and she didn't. She was going to get an abortion but came up with the money too late in pregnancy then continued to do drugs and drink trying to ruin the pregnancy that way however it didn't work. dad tried to get her put in jail till she had the baby so she couldn't harm it anymore but because he was under 18 nobody was listening to him. That and the way all this works he probably couldn't have proven all that unless she was drug tested or hired a private investigator. As far as I know dad never found out till later that she was too far along to have the abortion and was told she did. 9 months later he find out theres a child. messy situation from the begining. So it's no suprise its still continuing.

oh and as for your question they probably never called the cops. Theyre mutual friends with her so at the time they weren't trying to get involved. Plus they did drugs here and there with her at the time. not very good quality witness Im sure. Sadly its all hes got. which is why I said his case is really crap right now unless things progress in his favor as far as proof goes.

 

[Proserpina]

sad thing is about the laying down with parent B she lied to dad saying she was on birthcontrol when she wasn't...

Come on - he knew as well as anyone over the age of about 13 that when you sleep with someone, there's a risk of pregnancy.

when mom found out she was pregnant dad tried everything he could to make sure she had the baby. He wanted it and she didn't. She was going to get an abortion but came up with the money too late in pregnancy then continued to do drugs and drink trying to ruin the pregnancy that way however it didn't work.

Do you see where this statement completely contradicts the first? Mom lied about birth control because....what, she wanted an abortion?

Does that honestly make sense? SPECIALLY because a termination will often be provided at no cost to an indigent patient?

dad tried to get her put in jail till she had the baby so she couldn't harm it anymore but because he was under 18 nobody was listening to him.

I don't think you're being told the truth. Sorry, but that's about as honest as I can be here. He tried to get her put in jail? Because of fetal endangerment, right? But his age prevented ANYONE from listening? No, that's not how it works.

That and the way all this works he probably couldn't have proven all that unless she was drug tested or hired a private investigator. As far as I know dad never found out till later that she was too far along to have the abortion and was told she did. 9 months later he find out theres a child. messy situation from the begining. So it's no suprise its still continuing.

Hon, seriously, you're not being told the truth here. It may well be that Dad himself is unsure, or was told lies, or just doesn't understand - but I can promise you, that things didn't happen the way they've been presented to you.

oh and as for your question they probably never called the cops. Theyre mutual friends with her so at the time they weren't trying to get involved. Plus they did drugs here and there with her at the time. not very good quality witness Im sure. Sadly its all hes got. which is why I said his case is really crap right now unless things progress in his favor as far as proof goes.

So they didn't really give a flying crap about the welfare of the kid? Lovely. The courts aren't going to give that kind of testimony the time of day.

Barbie, look. At the moment, it seems that your husband is either not telling you what exactly happened, or that he doesn't understand/was lied to about what exactly happened. But that really, truly, is neither here nor there.

Your husband needs PROOF. Evidence. That either Mom is unfit, or that kiddo's circumstances have changed considerably (ie, Mom died or something).

By all means (as I believe you've been advised several times) have him speak with an attorney. But his chances of custody are slim to none.

 

[barbie77]

She told him that she was on the pill. Yes there is like a .1% chance of her getting pregnant. She lied because she didnt want to use a condom. But thats whatever. He was told after the child was born that she went to get the abortion after she was too far along...I have no idea. I just go by what he said. Really the past wont really matter now at all. As far as getting her put in jail he seriously said the cops wouldn't listen to him....But thats then...He would have had a very strong case and lost to use in court back when she was born but as of now its not that easy. I did have another question how does it work when the custody is set up? Is that the chance for each parent to prove why they should have primary custody rather than proving unfit? Also the fact that the mother didn't cooperate with CPS for a whole month with the drug test does that mean anything? They seemed to make it a very big deal about it at the time even so much as to tell dad not to return the child until she cooperated. Why would they make it such a big deal but the courts wouldn't care? They really got dads hopes up, not that they or anyone cares. So from what I've gathered dad should probably just suck it up and get used to the idea he'll never get custody of his daughter unless mom gets caught endangering the child and dad can prove it. Is it enough for her to just endanger the child or does it most likely have to be repeated or VERY bad? I really do appreciate this info. As much as it may suck the situation it's helpful to know and well not pay out the butt to hear you have no chance.

 

[Proserpina]

I did have another question how does it work when the custody is set up? Is that the chance for each parent to prove why they should have primary custody rather than proving unfit?

This is where - with the possible exception of very few states (and yours isn't one of them) - the status of the relationship comes into play. Basically, if the couple is married, they are considered equal and both have the same custodial rights to the child, and that's when a judge will decide - based upon many factors - what is in the child's best interests. It's an equal playing field, and everything will be considered.

But when the couple is unmarried, the father loses a lot of protection - Mom is, until Dad files something in court, the only legal parent and the only legal custodian of the child. These cases often make it very difficult for Dad to change things, simply because his rights have to first be established in court and often by the time he does this, Mom has already established status quo.

In all honestly, what many unmarried Dads will hear over and over again is "If you wanted the protection that marriage provided, you should've gotten married".

Also the fact that the mother didn't cooperate with CPS for a whole month with the drug test does that mean anything? They seemed to make it a very big deal about it at the time even so much as to tell dad not to return the child until she cooperated. Why would they make it such a big deal but the courts wouldn't care? They really got dads hopes up, not that they or anyone cares. So from what I've gathered dad should probably just suck it up and get used to the idea he'll never get custody of his daughter unless mom gets caught endangering the child and dad can prove it. Is it enough for her to just endanger the child or does it most likely have to be repeated or VERY bad? I really do appreciate this info. As much as it may suck the situation it's helpful to know and well not pay out the butt to hear you have no chance.

You're welcome - and I'm honestly not trying to give you, or Dad, a hard time here. But you both (and he especially) need to understand the reality that is family court.

Very simply, because the child is currently with Mom AND neither CPS nor the court has found her unfit, he's going to have a very, very hard time trying to justify why the child should be removed from Mom's custody.

It's not always about who can provide better for the child. And as has been discussed, "better" doesn't necessarily mean more money, or a bigger house, or what have you. Once custody has been decided, usually one of two things needs to happen before modification will occur - either a substantial change in the child's circumstance (or occasionally, the parent's circumstance), or the custodial parent is found to be unfit.

Does this make more sense?

 

[barbie77]

Thank you! Yes, that does help put it in better view for me. I didn't realize the impact the relationship had and how all of this really works. I understand it better now. So I understand now that dads chance of gaining custody, at least right now, is none. Is there any way dad can, since they have joint custody, in anyway affect the situation the child is in? As far as making it so the mom doesnt smoke in the house anymore or influence where the she will go to school? Smaller things like that? the smoking thing Im already guessing no but would there be anything that he can influence without having custody? He really wants to make sure shes getting the best even if it's not living with him. Thank you again!

 

[Proserpina]

Well, if Dad can show that Mom's smoking is affecting kiddo's health, he can certainly go to court and request the court order Mom not to smoke around kiddo...however enforcing that is somewhat impractical.

With regards to schooling, if Dad has joint legal custody he has as much right as Mom to make decisions about kiddo's school life etc.

 

[barbie77]

Thanks! So dad has an equal say. unfortunetly I forsee if dad has one opinion for where she should go to school and mom has another mom will be the final say since she will be the one taking her and picking her up, hopefully. hypethetical, when kiddo does start going to school what would happen if mom continuously takes her to school late or isn't able to take her to school at all and she starts missing school because of her mom? Another hypothetical mom could possibly realize the childs demands are too much for her to meet, say because of her work or late night rituals, what would happen if mom starts having her stay with dad and have dad take her to school? Mom has done something similar durring the summer where she would have her stay with dad throughout the summer while she worked and went on vacation and partied. Kiddo was with dad over 3 weeks out of every month for almost 5-6 months but when it came to custody I guess the courts didn't seem to care.

 

[Proserpina]

Thanks! So dad has an equal say. unfortunetly I forsee if dad has one opinion for where she should go to school and mom has another mom will be the final say since she will be the one taking her and picking her up, hopefully. hypethetical, when kiddo does start going to school what would happen if mom continuously takes her to school late or isn't able to take her to school at all and she starts missing school because of her mom?

It really depends on the degree of the tardies - too many and Dad may actually have a case for changing custody. The courts consider schooling to be (obviously) critical to the child's welfare, and if kiddo isn't going to school enough, or kiddo's education is suffering, that's often enough of a "change in circumstances" to change custody.

However, Dad can also help out Mom if he chooses to do so...if Mom's work schedule is making it tough for Mom to get kiddo to school on time, he may want to think about simply offering to take her to school himself.

Another hypothetical mom could possibly realize the childs demands are too much for her to meet, say because of her work or late night rituals, what would happen if mom starts having her stay with dad and have dad take her to school? Mom has done something similar durring the summer where she would have her stay with dad throughout the summer while she worked and went on vacation and partied. Kiddo was with dad over 3 weeks out of every month for almost 5-6 months but when it came to custody I guess the courts didn't seem to care.

If Dad was actually having her 3 weeks out of four, and for 6 months straight..I'm quite surprised he wasn't able to become primary custodian, as that's an obvious change of circumstance.

If it happens again, I think he'd have a much stronger chance at custody than right now.

(and you're very welcome )

 

[army judge]

Using pot in the presence of a child is something that the court and child protective services would not endorse.

If illegal drugs are being used in front of the children or children are being subjected to second hand marijuana smoke, somebody could be in big trouble,

If you know when it is occurring, contact the police immediately.

If that isn't possible, CPS and the court would review proof of the incident.

Courts frown upon illegal drug use in front of children, and so does CPS!

Become a rat, and eat some cheese on creatures that would harm innocent children this way!

 

[Proserpina]

Using pot in the presence of a child is something that the court and child protective services would not endorse.

If illegal drugs are being used in front of the children or children are being subjected to second hand marijuana smoke, somebody could be in big trouble,

If you know when it is occurring, contact the police immediately.

If that isn't possible, CPS and the court would review proof of the incident.

Courts frown upon illegal drug use in front of children, and so does CPS!

Become a rat, and eat some cheese on creatures that would harm innocent children this way!

While the police and CPS don't endorse pot use, it's rarely considered an issue...most of the time pot is seen as no worse than alcohol. For it to become an issue, it would have to be proven that not only are the drugs being taken around the child, but also that the child is being endangered by this.

 

[barbie77]

THANK YOU! So when the little one starts going to school dad is going to start making sure that she's not missing lots of days. Also if the hypothetical does happen where mom turns to dad to have her throughout the week to make sure that she is able to get to school and picked up should dad start keeping a calender again of when he has her? How do you exactley prove to the courts you've had the child all that time? The first time dad was in court he had a calender where he colored the days he had her in one color and the days mom had her in another. He never got to show the courts that calender the first time....

The way that all worked out was mom got a free attorney because of her money situation. Dad and mom went to see the special master twice. The first time was to establish why each parent wanted custody and when mom and dad would get the the little one and if they didn't like the way it got set up they could have another get together and go to court. So durring this first get together was where mom was asked why she felt the child would be better off with her....her answer Im her mom. She was asked the question again. Her answer I'm her mom I've raised her. They asked her a second time telling her again that isn't good enough. She finally answered she was there to set up something on paper for custody so she can continue getting her child support and her benifits. Dad answer was something along the lines that he wanted full custody so he can give her the best life possible. So mom and dad went to a second get together and it was decided that they would be going to court. Dad was told the system was full as far as the date it would be at least 3 months until they'd go to court. So dad though he still had time to get a lawyer so he started looking. two weeks later he got a letter saying the court date would be in a week. Dad tried getting a lawyer but that short notice they all wanted many thousands that dad wasn't going to have time to come up with if ever. Dad being scared he was was going to lose and look like a fool without a lawyer (her lawyer told dad he could either go to court lose and get less or settle for joint)So he settled for joint being scared of the alternative mom was trying to give him one or two weekends a month. He had so many good things to show for why he should get custody but didn't have the lawyer. Now he'd have to pove her unfit. Maybe it will work out someday...

 

[Proserpina]

THANK YOU! So when the little one starts going to school dad is going to start making sure that she's not missing lots of days. Also if the hypothetical does happen where mom turns to dad to have her throughout the week to make sure that she is able to get to school and picked up should dad start keeping a calender again of when he has her? How do you exactley prove to the courts you've had the child all that time? The first time dad was in court he had a calender where he colored the days he had her in one color and the days mom had her in another. He never got to show the courts that calender the first time....

Dad should keep a calendar of certainly how many overnights he has - it's the overnights which actually count more than how much time he has during the day (at least in this situation).

What Dad can also do, if it gets to this point, is escort kiddo INTO school and perhaps doing a "good morning" with her teacher - if the worst came to the worst, at least the teacher could testify that Dad is the one bringing her to school. Now this doesn't necessarily prove that Dad has kiddo overnight, but it certainly does bolster the suggestion that this is the case.

The way that all worked out was mom got a free attorney because of her money situation. Dad and mom went to see the special master twice. The first time was to establish why each parent wanted custody and when mom and dad would get the the little one and if they didn't like the way it got set up they could have another get together and go to court. So durring this first get together was where mom was asked why she felt the child would be better off with her....her answer Im her mom. She was asked the question again. Her answer I'm her mom I've raised her. They asked her a second time telling her again that isn't good enough. She finally answered she was there to set up something on paper for custody so she can continue getting her child support and her benifits. Dad answer was something along the lines that he wanted full custody so he can give her the best life possible. So mom and dad went to a second get together and it was decided that they would be going to court. Dad was told the system was full as far as the date it would be at least 3 months until they'd go to court. So dad though he still had time to get a lawyer so he started looking. two weeks later he got a letter saying the court date would be in a week. Dad tried getting a lawyer but that short notice they all wanted many thousands that dad wasn't going to have time to come up with if ever. Dad being scared he was was going to lose and look like a fool without a lawyer (her lawyer told dad he could either go to court lose and get less or settle for joint)So he settled for joint being scared of the alternative mom was trying to give him one or two weekends a month. He had so many good things to show for why he should get custody but didn't have the lawyer. Now he'd have to pove her unfit. Maybe it will work out someday...

VITAL piece of advice for Dad (actually for anyone in a custody battle):

Do NOT take advice from your ex, or your ex's attorney, when discussing your legal matters! They are NOT looking out for you!

So, it sounds as if Dad was pretty much "scared" into believing that he'd have no chance. That's very unfortunate for him actually because now he's in the position where the burden of proof is on him to show that either Mom is unfit, or that kiddo's circumstances have changed so substantially as to warrant modifying the current situation.

Please feel free to ask more questions if necessary

 

[Proserpina]

One other thing. If Dad is going to represent himself next time (or at all in the future) he needs to learn the rules of civil procedure and the local rules of the court. He CAN do this pro se - it may take a whole lot of time, frustration and headaches to learn about this stuff, but it IS possible to succeed pro se, even against an attorney. And that way, he will have more success being able to use certain things (such as the journal/diary) in court - as a general rule, these things must be correctly submitted to the court if they're to be used in the court-room.

Most districts have self-help centers available to pro se litigants; many have some wonderful resources available online too. Dad should take advantage of these things when/if the time comes.

(Of course, if Mom does have an attorney, it will absolutely be MUCH better if Dad has one too).